Author Topic: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.  (Read 2041 times)

Offline bluebeat

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Hi Dan / fellows.

Can somebody comment on this.... I have an audio track (not from VA) and when I add exported Audio from VA I get latency, compared to the track not from VA.
When output WAV file from VA, it starting to produce latency after about 20 seconds. I have tried individual tracks, or whole mix. Result is the same - latency that starts after ~20 seconds.

I have tried WASAPI and ASIO4ALL drivers.

Can somebody please help.
Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2018, 06:43:30 PM »
I told you about that one day, but you did not trusted me.

The vArranger recording, is a "what you hear" recording, and is not in sync with any reference clock

I see no reason why it will then be in sync with another recording

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2018, 06:54:47 PM »
Dan,  You are not correct. We talked about the INDIVIDUAL tracks from VA. They are in sync with each other. There is no problem there, but there is a latency between VA tracks and other, non VA WAV file. Is there a way to correct this?

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2018, 12:03:25 AM »
No solution of having VA Wav file to play together with non VA Wav file in sync??

Offline Dan

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2018, 12:13:45 AM »
The tempo in vArranger is not extremely precise... A BPM of 120 can become 119.9 then 120.1
We don't feel it, until we record and compare it with a reference clock

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2018, 01:07:56 AM »
Dan, it is not that little at all !! It is more like: starts at 105 and ends at 102 BPM.
There is enormous latency within outputted track compared in reference to non VA track.

What to do about this? What seems to be the issue with "clock"?
I wish to use tracks for other compositions, but seems to be not possible? 

P.S. Dan, in the past several month I have met some people that are very good at at solving software problems and they are musicians. If you can not figure the "clock", I can gladly try asking them on your behalf.

Please let me know.
Thanks.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2018, 01:59:34 AM »
Dan, but this one is killing me. What to do about this latency issue? This is HUGE for me. I need to be able to use VA WAV files with the ones from BIAB.
I never had problems with Mixing BIAB WAV with other WAV files that are of the same tempo. I am not talking about a single project here.... I have many that are already done in VA that I wanted to use in DAW with BIAB WAV files.
Please let me know.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2018, 03:53:18 PM »
Dan, I tried 2 other approaches, using a completely different computer and also connecting a second computer and recording tracks "live" to another.
There is a SUBSTANTIAL discrepancy within latency of your synth! I have over 100 arrangements (my own, not a "popular" song copied ones), that I have made in VA.
We are talking hundreds of hours of my time.  With this latency, it is not possible to render with proper tempo. Audio Snap in DAW does not work well, as your latency is exponential. What to do???

Offline Dan

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2018, 04:50:02 PM »
This is not latency, you are using a wrong word
vArranger synth has no perceptible latency

What you are talking is more a problem of synchronization between 2 separate clocks and jitter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

The only solution I see is if I add a MIDI SYNC IN option, so the vArranger clock is slave of your DAW clock (no more tempo change possible in styles, as the tempo is determined by the external clock)

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2018, 05:05:25 PM »
Dan, this is a bit confusing for me.
Here is actual example:
vA project set to 105 BPM (in vA)
BIAB project (source) set to 105 BPM
DAW project is set to 105 BMP
+ Midi in DAW....

In DAW, everything plays well, except for  WAV files from vA. They are synced among other VA WAV files, but not to the rest of the project.

Not sure what you mean by "slave clock".  To me, it should work like this: If I set tempo in VA to 105BPM, it should output files as 105BPM. If I set it to 180BMP, it should output files that are 180BPM. Not something else.

Please let me know if it is possible to fix. I am sleeping very bad because of this.

Thank you.



Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2018, 05:15:21 PM »
It is true, there are NO LATENCY, absolutely NO LATENCY !!!

I can Argument this with various facts, from recorded audio track in vArranger² and than
imported it in one DAW (Studio One, Cubase, Sonar…) with predefined tempo of Style what
I recorded with vArranger². This track has exactly the same tempo in DAW !!! I can record
(video) when you don't trust. I sync. v.E. one external VST Host with NI Kontakt inside synced
with vArranger² Midi Clock and tempo on Kontakt varies about 0,1 bpm what is not to hear.
Under is one picture with opened vArranger² and stand alone Kontakt (not as VST in vArranger²).
You can see the tempo is the same. Kontakt is synced over Midi Clock from vArranger² !!!
Something other you make wrong !!!



Offline Dan

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2018, 05:31:32 PM »
The BPM is an ideal indication of what the player should do = how many beats per minutes

Midi players use a clock to know what time is it actually, and if it is the good time to play the next midi event

2 different players that use 2 different clocks can drift apart, as there is not any warranty that the clocks will stay in sync

This is the same reason why usually you can't use 2 different audio cards playing together in the same software, as the 2 audio cards has their own different clock (even if they are very precise)

Some audio cards own a WORD CLOCK  BNC input and outputs to allow 2 audio cards to share one clock. One is a master and one is slave

It seems to be evident to you, but if you say to 2 person to count 60 seconds in their head. They start together, but I am sure they will not say 60 together

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2018, 05:55:07 PM »
Agaton, I am using TA SF2 bank, no VSTS.
I just tried your way and used predefined tempo of one style that was 112 BPM in VA, outputted one from BIAB of 112 BPM,
They are not synced. So predefined or not it they are not in sync. 

Dan, If I take two projects of different tempos in BIAB and use  same chord sets and lets say if one project is 110BPM and another 90... Set them both to 100 and output wav files from two different sessions, they would sync properly to Cakewalk project that is 100.

How it is possible to resolve this, so outputted VA WAV files are in sync with ones from BIAB?  I only use 3 main programs BIAB, VA and Cakewalk. Please help.


Offline Dan

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2018, 06:08:15 PM »
vArranger is not tied to any temporal grid. It just plays events approximately when they should be playing according to many considerations, as BPM, tempo changes etc...
Other software like Cakewalk are made with the idea to mix midi and audio together, so they use a strong temporal grid (they got it from the audio card clock)
BIAB is not a realtime software, and can render wav files at a perfect time
The vArranger audio rec is not a rendering, but a simple recording of what you hear

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2018, 06:57:12 PM »
I understand the explanation, but that does not resolve the issue.
Dan, can VA be tight to strong temporal grid (they got it from the audio card clock)? So everything is in sync?


Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2018, 07:19:30 PM »
Agaton, I am using TA SF2 bank, no VSTS.
I just tried your way and used predefined tempo of one style that was 112 BPM in VA, outputted one from BIAB of 112 BPM,
They are not synced. So predefined or not it they are not in sync.


It is no matter if you use only TA SF2 or only VST or both.
They must be synced when your Win system is good configured and your Audio Interface do its job properly.
On the picture you can see how good synced stereo wav in vArranger² recorded file with same (predefined) tempo
in Studio One. I have marked some of places intentionally in the middle of the recorded file imported in Studio One. It is
amazing how good in time it is.




It seems to be that BIAB has a big problem with export of audio or with sync. !!!

« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 07:22:13 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2018, 07:24:12 PM »
Agaton,  thanks, I am sorry to say, but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with BIAB.
 If it works for you, great. Dan knows exactly what I am talking about and hopefully will have a resolution for me.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2018, 07:48:26 PM »
Agaton, for testing purposes.
Here are VA style file with chords (2 files) and MP3 105 BPM drums.
See if they are in sync after 20 seconds of playing.

Drums look perfect in DAW. Outputed VA WAV starts to have latency after 18 seconds and continues stretching that latency (or clock) or whatever it is called.... coming late.


Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2018, 07:50:55 PM »
I said "seems to", I don't know what make problems on your system
but without detailed analysis we can't find what is the reason for this
big BUG. How you can see, vArranger recorded file stay in tempo perfectly
in Studio One DAW as imported audio file, thats mean vArranger recording
very good. Your problem is definitely not vArranger recorded file.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2018, 08:14:44 PM »
Here is image of WAV from VA at measure 4 and 40+

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2018, 08:19:26 PM »
Agaton, for testing purposes.
Here are VA style file with chords (2 files) and MP3 105 BPM drums.
See if they are in sync after 20 seconds of playing.

Drums look perfect in DAW. Outputed VA WAV starts to have latency after 18 seconds and continues stretching that latency (or clock) or whatever it is called.... coming late.
Yes, you become Latency, and difference be always more and more. This is very well known problem by bad audio cards or bad audio system configurations. 
This is a reason for all your problems. All audio cards or devices become one System Clock in your computer and other periphery, this Clock must be stable but
it is  sometimes, by bad audio hardware, or bad audio computer configuration, very unstable !!! Result of this unstable audio system is just this latency that be
constantly biger and biger with the time. I don't know which audio interface you have or you use only internal sound card with ASIO4All Driver, and I don't
know how good or worse is configured your Windows for audio. There are also another devices connected on your computer that can be "guilty" for this problem.
It can be solved but I need to know all about your hardware and software what you use. I say it one time more, it is known problem and nothing new in audio domain.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 08:21:04 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2018, 08:52:53 PM »
Agaton, you are wrong. I have tried onboard card AND 2 Asio interfaces, Wasapi and Asio, 2 different computers.Different ASIO buffers. I did my homework.

I am sure Dan knows what is going on.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2018, 09:02:30 PM »
I made for you the hardest test in a sync domain !!!
I had recorded in a same time audio from vArranger²
and in a DAW. This is the hardest situation for one
system, two differnet aplications (programs) record
in a same time the same audio, Here are both files.
Test it !!!


Link:

https://we.tl/t-FFECfo1nfi


...and no, I am in right.




Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2018, 09:09:07 PM »
I have tried onboard card AND 2 Asio interfaces, Wasapi and Asio, 2 different computers.Different ASIO buffers. I did my homework

That means only that both computers are with bad Audio Win
or both audio interfaces are shit. If you and me have the same
vArranger2 and you have problem with sync and i haven't it by
very very hard test… what is the conclusion ?


« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 09:15:54 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2018, 10:56:47 PM »
ok, Agaton. Instead of saying nice things about my computer and interfaces, can you upload MP3 record from VA of style I posted using your Ta Sf2? (not Kontakt), SF2 bank, please.
Thank you.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2018, 09:13:55 AM »
Dan, while Agaton is trying to prove something, which I believe he will fail to prove... Can you please try to resolve this for me.
Please let me know.
Thank you.

Offline olivier71500

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2018, 09:39:09 AM »
@Agaton
Hi ,
You wrote ".... computers are with bad Audio Win or both audio interfaces are shit ...."

What do you mean by "bad audio win" ? Do you mean audio drivers ?

"both audio interfaces are shit" : What are for you good and bad audio interfaces ?
Is there special specifications to take care or is it for you only "build quality" ?

@Bluebeat : do you use specific asio drivers or asio4all?


Olivier

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2018, 10:00:53 AM »
Olivier, I tried internal card with WASAPI and ASIO4ALL   AND  2 dedicated external ASIO cards.
It is not because of the cards or computer setup. It is what Dan said. It does not send correct clock to vArranger synth when using SF2 files in SAMPLES directory.

Dan, we can discuss this until we turn "blue" with other members, but only you can solve this.

Please let me/us know.

Thank you.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2018, 01:28:36 PM »
ok, Agaton. Instead of saying nice things about my computer and interfaces, can you upload MP3 record from VA of style I posted using your Ta Sf2? (not Kontakt), SF2 bank, please.
Thank you.
I have posted it, and not only file recorded on vA, also File recorded in the same time on DAW.
Yo don't read carefuly !!! Tempo in vA of this Blues Style was 131 bmp. Check it !!! I have posted to you
also picture and you can see that both audio files are 100% sync.

One time more the Link:

https://we.tl/t-FFECfo1nfi


I said always "nice things" about "nice" devices !!! This can be my or not, if
 it not OK is, than I can not lie only cause it is my, or your, or... I have not any
"Close Encounters of the Third Kind" with audio interfaces, devices, computers. It
is only some metal and some plastic !!! I have said to you what I have to say
about problem with latency, you can trust on it or not, this is your problem !!!




« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 01:33:18 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2018, 03:14:55 PM »
Agaton, yours is not 105BPM and NOT 131BPM as you said. Se attached. I do not even think it is from my file.
Agaton, what you did, is you compared 2 audio files from Varranger.... that you recorded. This was not the question.


Dan, I think you are having a bit of fun here, and I am not blaming you for it. Happiness is good thing.
But can you please stop this bizarre conversation and answer, if you can fix this, so vSynth adhires to card clock or whatever needs to be done, as the outputted WAV files from VA have bad tempo mapping.

Thank you.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2018, 06:30:19 PM »
Bluebeat don't write that about what you have not enough knowledge and experience.
That what you have attached shows just what I wrote !!!
Files what I send to you are both 131 bpm but you can't use and see that, and this is
your problem. What you doing, how did you import this audio files, which mistake you
made, I don't know but, one time more, both audio files what I send to you are 131
bpm, that is a fact !!!

You may don't trust anything what I write and what I send to you about your issue.
I have no more mind to explain it again, cause of that we make so: I shall record video
file of all what I doing in real time and... cause of the result of all what you will se later,
please be carefull with your words !!!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 06:33:44 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2018, 06:49:46 PM »
Agaton,
Here is your track on 131 BPM project. See attached. There is no "secret" ways of importing your track. This is how it imports to DAW into 131BPM project.
If this is 131 BPM to you, that is ok with me. Agaton, maybe I am wrong at some things...sure, but so far I have not heard anything worthy accept that I have bad computer, s#it Asio interface(s), and do not know what I am talking about.

Thank you for trying, but  as I mentioned, I am more interested in what Dan has to say about this.


Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2018, 07:03:48 PM »
@Agaton
Hi ,
You wrote ".... computers are with bad Audio Win or both audio interfaces are shit ...."

What do you mean by "bad audio win" ? Do you mean audio drivers ?
No, or... not only. Bad audio Windows means that this Windows system isn't configured for audio. There are many Services, Registry,  many Apps etc. what have to be erased, deactivated, configured to make this Audio Widows better or best for audio job.

"both audio interfaces are shit" : What are for you good and bad audio interfaces ?
Is there special specifications to take care or is it for you only "build quality" ?
Olivier
Quality of Audio Interfaces AD/DA converters  is very, very important, but it is only one reason. It is
also important what kind of audio Interface it is: USB, FireWire, PCI, PCIe, Thunderbolt, than it is very important
how much occupied one Audio Interface whole system (also in idle), than how stable are ASIO Drivers, are ASIO
Drivers Multiclient or not, can it be synced with other audio device periphery via Word Clock or any other sync
way, has it DSP-s (for Mixer and Effects) or not... etc... etc... Cause of all this differences between Audio Interfaces
you can buy one for 20 € or for 5.000 €. It can be much more written about Audio Interfaces. It was one short and
global overview.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2018, 07:15:38 PM »
@Bluebeat

It is OK Bluebeat, no matter. I had say or write, what can be the problem, I have said
that I am not sure, but one of this things what I wrote must be "guilty" (operating system
configuration, maybe also computer hardware, or audio interface). I shall make this video
in a real time that you can see that all funct and all with this "fabulous tempo" is OK when
system and hardware are OK. We shall see all, only be patience and you will see also.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 07:20:54 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2018, 07:44:00 PM »
Dan, seems agaton knows something you don't... He thinks it is my setup and not what you said: "vArranger recording, is a "what you hear" recording, and is not in sync with any reference clock"...

Can you please shine a light on this. Thank you.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2018, 09:16:50 PM »
This is not the secret for Dan, he know that as programmer who implement  this function in vA2 before long, long time: vArranger send continious Midi Clock thru Midi Out Ports to external Midi periphery or internal Midi Aplications. So you can synchronize vArranger2 as master  with any DAW or VST HOST which "understand" Midi Clock !!! Naturally, vArranger recorded all what you hear from its Main Outputs, and  that is not in sync with any referent Clock cause it can be only Master and that is the  fact.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 09:23:40 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2018, 09:52:32 PM »
Yes, agaton, precisely.
So if you use independent metronome (which would be the same in Africa , China or Australia), recorded wav files from vSynth will be out of sync, where audio files from most other software will be in sync. That is a problem I am trying to resolve. Not anything else.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2018, 10:05:34 PM »
Why ? Why will be recorded audio file from vArranger out of sync ? The same
you can say about any other DAW software. Why only vArranger², what is the
difference ? In vArranger² you can define Tempo like in any other DAW, 105 bmp,
131 bmp, 178 bmp… it is no matter. The same you can do in any other music
software like Cubase, Sonar etc... you can also define the same tempo like in
vArranger², same in Africa , China or Australia.
Audio in vArranger is fixed on 44.1kHz and this can't be changed, like on some 
other DAWs, that means that your Audio Interface must be also on 44.1kHz.

I don't understand what is the problem, you write confuse. Cause of that I wrote to
you, try to explain this problem one time more but detailed and precise. What you
whant to become, or what is your target to do ? Maybe I shall help you if I know
that.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 10:09:16 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2018, 10:22:48 PM »
Dan, Agaton...
As I said, I might be wrong at some things... but this is scenario:

1)I render drums in BIAB at 105 BPM

2)Go to Cakewalk....create new project 105BPM.

3)Import that WAV into project. All beats on right bars, where they should be, metronome synced. Everything perfect. If I import something from other
places, like sample library that has full instrumental parts 105BPM  (WAV, not MIDI), they will also sync well to the project

4)If I "audio record" track from vArranger as WAV, using vSynth+SF2 bank, and import that file to the same DAW project......
It will stay in sync for about 15-20 seconds, with other tracks (and metronome) and then it will not stay in sync for the rest of the song.  It does not adhere to standard tempo, set in that project.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2018, 11:08:20 PM »
I understand. In this case (I know that vArranger² record perfect in tempo, whole time)
it is one of more issues in your Windows System, that must be corrected or on other way
configured. Like I wrote on the beginning of this thread, the problem can be in Audio
Windows configuration, and I know now that is definitely so. You can trust me, vArranger
make no mistake with tempo, its midi tempo is very stable !!! I send to you one picture
where vArranger² synchronize stand alone NI Kontakt on 131 bpm. Whole time (2 or 3
minutes) Tempo display on Kontakt shows values between 131,00 and 131,07 bpm. This is
optimal value on Midi Clock synchronisation. Later I have recorded in same time one Style
in vArranger² and the same audio signal from vArranger Main Out in a Studio One 4. Than,
after recording I have imported audio file recorded in vArranger² on one stereo audio track
under the recorded track in Studio One 4, and both tracks were absolutely in sync whole time
(no progressive latency in a time, no latency between this two tracks at all).

So, it is one or more issues in your system, maybe also .ini file of vArranger² (this is also part
of system), maybe a few positions in Win Sys which have to be changed to play audio, maybe
you have one AntiVirus program instaled and Antivirus programs are the worst enemy of audio,
maybe your internet LAN is guilty, it is also not the best friend of audio. It can be any of them
functions that make you problem with synced audio files. The best way in so one case, to find
the cause of problem is exclusion principle because I don't know your hardware and also software
configuration. It will be solved but it can lasts some more time. If you whant to solve this problem
than please write specification of your computer, or if it is one Laptop than write Model, and write
also which Windows you have instaled, than if you have Antivirus instaled. For the beginning it will
be enough.


You wrote often about BIAB. Which version of BIAB you use, and also which version of Cakewalk you
use. Cakewalk is one of DAWs which can be synched via Midi Clock (some versions of Cakewalk Sonar),
all other big DAWs are without this function, they synced on other ways (MMC... etc). That means that
you can try one test recording with synced Cakewalk (slave) from the vArranger² (master), to see whats
happen (if your audio interface can do it). This can help me to solve the problem very fast.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 11:21:33 PM by agaton »

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2018, 11:35:23 PM »
Agaton, if you are saying it is my computer....
Please help, by playing and recording the style in attachment (I believe you need both files to play it)   it is  105BPM using your TA SF2 set in SAMPLES folder. Using vSynth, not Kontakt, recording as  "Audio rec" in vArranger.

If your MP3 (or WAV) will sync to my 105 BPM DAW project, I will take my words back, apologize and listen to you.
Thank you.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2018, 12:09:15 AM »
Agaton, any news on the Mp3 or Wav? I am very interested to  know if you are right about it.
thank you.

Offline stewbow

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2018, 11:30:01 AM »
Bluebeat
it is not just rendered recordings that are slightly out of sync, but also the real time playing aswell.
I have 2 computers, one with VArranger and 1 with Sonar.
If I was to set VArranger on 120bpm and record into Sonar set on 120 BPM and record for say 60 seconds, then go into Sonar and manually align the start of the wav file with the start of the 1st bar, then by the end of the 60 seconds it would be slightly out of sync.
It's been a while, but after time consuming experiments, I seemed to hit on the idea a setting the Sonar Clock to for example, something like 119.876 and got it to sync correctly.
I cant remember have a problem with the tempo fluctuating!!!!

Anyway, we are dealing with computers, they are designed to waste our time and stop us from actually producing an end product and allowing us to go out in the real world and play golf.

One serious thought, could you not import the VArranger rendered recording into something like Sound Forge and simply use a "Time Stretch" function to get it exact before then importing it into your DAW????

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2018, 02:01:57 PM »
Stewbow,
thank you for your reply.  Do not give into the idea that files from vArranger can not be in sync. It is not science fiction. There can be, and there should be an option for the people who will use these files outside VA to have vsynth adhere to correct tempo.  I am afraid it is more than time stretching.  Seems more like a TEMPO MAP + LATENCY problem, which can be corrected within vArranger and not with performing surgeries in DAW. What bothers me is that:
Dan is ignoring this topic.

I gave up  many hopes & dreams concerning vArranger.  But this, if Dan does not fix it, would be a final stab in the back.

VA Outputted wav files are not of correct tempo., which makes them useless when using them with files with correct tempo.


P.S. Not sure where Agaton disappeared. I seriously doubt that his "tuned" computer will spit out WAV from vArranger that has correct BPM and correct Tempo map. Yet to see that magic.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2018, 02:19:13 PM »
It is true that a fast computer can help so the events will not be played a bit late, but 2 clocks can still potentially drift a bit without any synchronization mechanism. This can be after 10 bars or after 200 bars with fast computer...
I am trying to see if I can implement MIDI SYNC IN in vArranger, so your DAW will drive the vArranger clock

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2018, 02:35:32 PM »
Dan, please.
I bought vArranger to make arrangements without the correct tempo, they are not usable.
Not sure what you mean by MIDI SYNC... As long as outputted WAV files from vsynth using SF2 banks have correct tempo, that should solve it.
Can you please make that happen.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2018, 02:43:44 PM »
There will be probably a special mode where vArranger will play event in the same time as your DAW
So you will press START REC in your DAW, and vArranger will start playing at the same tempo as your host

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2018, 02:57:59 PM »
Dan, I am not sure what my DAW has to do with vArranger vSynth.....
All this time, I am talking about WAV files recorded in vArranger.
vSynth+SF2 bank = Audio rec, in varranger not DAW record...

As I understand, most audio programs that deal with midi/audio have internal midi clock.





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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2018, 07:55:24 PM »
The vArranger AUDIO REC feature is not a TIMESTAMPED recording

You can even record only melody notes that you play without any style or rythm, just like a piano player

It is a " what you hear " recorder, like if you use the audio recorder of your phone

vArranger itself does not necessary play in an absolute time, as the user can change the tempo at anytime, the styles can have tempo changes, and many other considerations...

Now, you want the recording duration to be exact, so you can sync other tracks with it...

The only solution I see now, is to link the vArranger clock to another recorder or player that has a time grid, like your DAW to force vArranger to play (and record) at a precise time

I will probably add the MIDI CLOCK SYNC IN feature in the next vArranger release

This will be a nice feature for users who want to play vArranger together with a DAW or other arranger in sync

Offline stewbow

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2018, 11:24:39 PM »
Yeeeessss, that will be a great feature

Offline eallan

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2018, 11:42:44 PM »
Adding the MIDI CLOCK SYNC IN would be good.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2018, 01:04:39 AM »
Dan, I do not believe what you are proposing is a solution with using SF2 bank + varranger synth. We had this discussion before. About a year ago. It was about streaming audio (not midi) to DAW. There was no proper solution/resolution to stream sound to DAW from varranger. Somebody hinted that it might work with some high end cards that allow multiple virtual streams. I think the only solution is what you mentioned....: Have proper Tempo when BMP is fixed.

I care about whole arrangement following BPM /  proper tempo map using vsynth+sf2 bank.....

Dan, why are you keep on referring to "recording VA to DAW"?   VA can not record audio from vsynth SF2 bank on a normal / average system. Why are you keep mentioning that? Can you please explain.

Thank you.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2018, 10:39:42 AM »
It will not stream to DAW, only get the time grid from DAW
Like if you have the DAW playing or recording a song together with a Tyros playing a style

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2018, 01:48:08 PM »
Hmm Dan, I am not a specialist, but...
I can not grasp what you are describing....
You need WASAPI exclusive to avoid latency.  You can not have 2 WASAPI exclusive in VA and DAW at the same time. DAW would not play a project if exclusive control is taken by VA and wise versa.
 
If you mix WASAPI / ASIO in live setup, that too might create latency issues.
Why not implement internal clock.  Have a tick on vSynth follow clock / not follow clock?


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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2018, 12:38:02 AM »
Maybe you can use your pro audio card for the DAW, and the computer wasapi audio for vArranger recording

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2018, 02:32:20 AM »
Dan,  this is a bit ridiculous approach.... Like a witch soup. Why do this?

Please name one musical program developed in the past 10 years that would output file that is by design of the program is out of sync with timeline  and BPM.
BIAB, FL, Yamaha Mobile Music Sequencer, recorded WAV samples, hardware sequencers just to name a few...
None of these would have internal tempo problem / latency as much as VA has.

Unless latency is created by hardware, which Agaton argues.  His problem is he does not realize the core problem of latency / tempo mismatch is internal to vsynth
when hits sounds from "SAMPLES" folder and no "hardware tuning" will ever solve this.

Dan, I do not think I am asking much to have the recorded audio be usable in standard project grid of DAW. There must be a non science fiction way to address this.

Thanks.




Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2018, 11:26:43 AM »
Dan, I had run more tests.
Here is what I found. I used SAME chord grid for DIFFERENT styles in VA of different makers/genres. I recorded audio through vArrranger "audio rec".
(vSynth+SF2).

Result: They are all in sync with each other, but NOT to other items outside VA.  Files from VA have the SAME latency pattern. ON ALL OF THEM!!!

Different audio cards / buffers do NOT solve this! (That is why I believe Agaton is quiet after HoT debate :) ) I tried at least 20 scenarios on 2 different computers.

This is internal to your synth. Is is possible to fix this?

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2018, 03:31:59 PM »
No agaton is not quite, agaton have much to do in this time,
(a few bigger projects in the same time). Don't write that about
what you don't know anything. I don't play little bit with music,
music is my job and I must work. I have downloaded your Style,
(it is probably Roland Style) but I had no time to make it, I promise
I shall make it for you, cause you are so persistent and so boring,
and sometimes also ironical that I can't read it more. Please be patient,
it is not so danger and urgent. No atom bomb is on the way to us.
 

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2018, 04:06:27 PM »
Agaton,
You do not read thread properly. Roland or not Roland. I have tried different styles with same chord grid. VA files sync together WELL TO THEMSELVES BUT NOT TO TEMPO GRID OR SYNC TO OTHER NON VA FILES.

Bottom line: Audio recordings from Varranger using vsynth+SF2 bank in Sample folder have exponential latency that is internal to vsynth, not hardware. I want Dan to fix this latency issue, so files are usable.

Offline agaton

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2018, 04:15:39 PM »
I read very, very properly, every word... but you !!!
Anyway, please be patient.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2018, 04:30:25 PM »
Yes, I am waiting for that file like a child for Santa Clause!
Agaton, do not make child cry!


Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2018, 08:25:52 PM »
another try, another fail...

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2018, 01:14:28 PM »
It seems to me that whenever "uncomfortable" topic arises, it suddenly gets quiet here.
Dan, vsynth was the deciding factor for me to buy varranger.  If I knew  that it would output broken temp files, I would probably rethink the purchase and would not of recommended to the people as I did.  Please let me know if you are intending to fix this the right way, internally? Not through some unorthodox way with third party dependent programs.

P.S. And maybe relieve Agaton, so he does not waste time trying to "ride a car with square tires on a highway"
He is convinced that his computer will output file with correct tempo through vsynt +SF2 ...

Thank you.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2018, 01:48:38 PM »
Actually working on the MIDI SYNC IN. To test it, I am using a ARTURIA BEATSTEP in SEQUENCER mode as it send a MIDI CLOCK out, in USB port, and can change the tempo in realtime
Not easy to program..... 4 days on it, and still not perfect

ps : Your way to claim your need looks agressive in the forum and not very pleasant to many readers, so please try to moderate yourself

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2018, 02:43:03 PM »
Dan, if I was asking for a candy, I would be nice. For something that came as a very unpleasant surprise and being ignored, yes it is frustrating.
Especially when I invested many hours of trying to resolve this.

You read Agaton comments, why not tell him that whatever "tuning" he does, will not fix tempo issues? He believes otherwise...

P.S.  Keep in mind that you are doing good not for me personally, but for your program, your current and future customers.
I was very calm when yearly update did not include anything I have asked for for long time. For example SAVE/OPEN VST with project or at least fix scaling of VST loading screen.
It is very strange that you did not do that, but I do realize it is optional, therefore I have no say in it. Wrong tempo is a problem, not a "option request".

Thank you.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2018, 07:01:13 PM »
I can understand your frustration that things are not like you need, but I prefer to tell you that your posts looks a bit agressive. I don't know if you realize it, and this can be counterproductive.

You post negative comments but you don't know everything...


As strange as it is... sit down ... I will tell you that...

The tempo being few microseconds loosy is a voluntary feature of vArranger. We don't feel it while playing until we record audio and compare with a time grid

The result can be a bit different between computers, motherboards, cpu, chipset, version of windows, % of CPU etc... that's why I did not say NO to Agaton

I can't explain too much as this is complex, but in the past, vArranger had a rigid timing grid, then we changed everything to have this in time but not perfect timings

This proved over time to be more secure for playing in live condition.

vArranger was created first as a realtime software, and not as a DAW. We however created the export song chords to midifile feature to be in a perfect timing

The audio rec feature was added to create perfect audio quality recording, but not different from what you hear, so grid aligned timings

Once you take this in consideration, we can continue to talk, and see what can be done for the future

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2018, 07:44:59 PM »
Arranger can be for live music or non live music. It is for arranging songs.  If vArranger does not have a basic audio output that has a correct tempo, it can not be compared with hardware arrangers. 

I have tried over 25 (TWENTY FIVE!) different scenarios with different audio cards, different computers, different sound sets, different drivers,different buffer setting, running latencymon, disabling non essential drivers, airplane mode, recording from computer to computer and a few other things.

Dan, life is short and "future" is very flexible word. How about a deal. Fix tempo issue (rigid time grid), so recorded WAVs are of the correct tempo (as they should be) and I will not post to this forum in the future, except for update requests when these come out.

Let me know.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2018, 11:42:07 PM »
Of course a software arranger for windows can't be compared with hardware arranger, when they have a dedicated hardware chip for the clock, and doing nothing else that playing some midi events at the right time

I did not said that you need to stop posting. Just to use less agressive phrases if possible :)

On the contrary, your topic raised a nice move into the SYNC IN feature

Then we need to find a simple software like https://midiclock.com/ for you when you just select the tempo and press start. vArranger should then start.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2018, 01:42:08 AM »
Dan,
if Sync In would work, it would solve a big headache with Audio and live midi stream and a step toward a system that could replace hardware sooner.
If Midi Clock is not internal, I think it would be better to use DAW clock. Or I guess if the option is there, you can use anything that works.
Just simple instructions please to use with DAW.

Dan, please, let me try beta.

P.S. I promise to behave well :)


Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2018, 04:10:37 PM »
Dan, Can I please try the Beta (Alpha?) version with "sync in" option?
Thank you.

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2018, 04:13:31 PM »
I hope somewhere this week

Dan

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2018, 07:04:12 PM »
Dan,
Thank you! I sincerely hope it will correct issues with tempo. I am sure people who record will appreciate this feature very much. 

P.S. While you are in progressive spirit, I thought I would bring this up one more time. Please consider a way to disable vSynth without uninstalling it.
Similar to when you go to OPTIONS-->MidiPorts  you can chose Midi IN or OUT (or Audio In) to none. Would be helpful if same could be applied to "Audio Out" to "none"...to bypass vSynth. So for instance, if a person (me or anyone else) wants to use vArranger as a MIDI only device, it would not use computer/audio resources.

Thank you!

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2018, 07:57:16 PM »
Selecting a Direct Sound output will no more take exclusive sound to other apps
Also, if you don't select VST or vArranger Software Synth for midi out , it should be like OFF

Offline stewbow

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2018, 05:03:20 PM »
Hi Dan

did you manage to resolve this issue?

Stuart

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Serious latency within the outputted WAV file... Dan can you please help.
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2018, 10:55:39 PM »
I am patiently waiting too for Sync In, with my fingers crossed.