Author Topic: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!  (Read 2145 times)

Offline nikola

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Dan I have tested Major Chords on my Tyros 2 and on vArranger 2 and are playing not the same notes. I have used Tyros 2 Factory Style Jazz Pop.

Tyros 2                             
CMaj   C2-E3,G3,C4 (1st Inversion)
C#Maj C#2-F3,G#3,C#4 (1st Inversion)
DMaj   D2-F#3-A3,D4 (1st Inversion)
D#Maj D#2-D#3,G3,A#3 (Root Tone)
EMaj    E2-E3,G#3,H3 (Root Tone)
FMaj    F2-F3,A3,C4 (Root Tone)
F#Maj  F#2-F#3,G#3,C#4 (Root Tone)
GMaJ   G2-D3,G3,H3 (2nf Inversion)
G#Maj G#2-D#3,G#3,C4 (2nd Inversion)
AMaJ   A2-E3,A3,C#4  (2nd Inversion)
A#Maj A#2-F3,A#3,D4 (2nd Inversion)
HMaj   H2-C#3,F#3,H3 (1st Inversion)

On vArranger 2 always is playng Root Tone f.e. CMaj C2-C3,E3,G3...DMaj D2-D3,F#3,A3...
on vA2 Chords: D#Maj, EMaj, FMaj and F#Maj are sounding like on Tyros 2, but all others not (CMaj, C#Maj, DMaj, GMaj, G#Maj, AMaj, A#Maj and HMaj) and this schould you correct on vA2 please. Shure on vA2 are not wrong notes but why not the same like on Yamaha, when we playng Yamaha Styles?
For Minor Chords also the same...

On ACC1 is MegaVoice and FX Notes are correct on vA2 like on Tyros2.
I have used SD2 Mode...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 08:50:59 PM by nikola »

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 01:59:14 PM »
Great work Nikola!

Dan, could you implement this in vArranger please?

Offline nikola

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2017, 02:56:12 PM »
7Th Chords also are not sounding the same played on Tyros and vA2. Will be good also to corect on vA2.

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 07:18:39 PM »
EMaj    E2-E3,G#3,H3 (Root Tone)

Offline nikola

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 09:02:32 PM »
Yamaha Note Transposition Rules (NTR) should be impruved on vA2 f.e. ROOT FIXED RULE.

Hier f.e. on Yamaha:
Note Transposition Rule
NTR specify the transposition rule to be used by the transposition table. Three settings are available:
ROOT TRANS:
When transposed the pitch relationship between notes is maintained. For example, the notes C3, E3, and G3 in the key of C will become F3, A3, and C4 when transposed to F. Use this setting for parts that contain melodic lines.
ROOT FIXED:
The note is kept as close as possible to the previous note range. For example, the notes C3, E3, and G3 in the key of C will become C3, F3, and A3 when transposed to F. Use this setting for chordal parts.
GUITAR:
(SFF2 format only)
This is exclusively for transposing guitar accompaniment. Notes are transposed to approximate the chords played with natural guitar fingering.
Note Transposition Table
NTT specify the note transposition table to be used for source pattern transposition.
The following table types are available for Note Transposition Rule "Root Trans" and "Root Fixed":
BYPASS:
No transposition.
MELODY:
Suitable for melody line transposition. Use for melody parts such as PHRASE 1 and PHRASE 2.
CHORD:
Suitable for chord transposition. Use for the CHORD 1 and CHORD 2 parts when they contain piano or guitar-like chordal parts.
BASS
(Replaced by MELODY in newer models):
Suitable for bass line transposition. This table is basically similar to the MELODY table, but recognizes "on-bass" chords allowed in the FINGERED 2 fingering mode. Use primarily for bass lines.
MELODIC MINOR:
This table lowers the third scale degree by a semitone when changing from a major to a minor chord, or raises the minor third scale degree a semitone when changing from a minor to a major chord. Other notes are not changed. Use for parts which respond to major/minor chords, e.g. Intros and Endings.
MELODIC MINOR 5th Var.:
In addition to the table above, augmented and diminished chords affects the 5th note of the pattern.
HARMONIC MINOR:
This table lowers the third and sixth scale degrees by a semitone when changing from a major to a minor chord, or raises the minor third and flatted sixth scale degrees a semitone when changing from a minor to a major chord. Other notes are not changed. Use for parts which respond to major/minor chords, e.g. Intros and Endings.
HARMONIC MINOR 5th Var.:
In addition to the table above, augmented and diminished chords affects the 5th note of the pattern.
NATURAL MINOR:
This table lowers the third, sixth and seventh intervals in the scale by a semitone when changing from a major to a minor chord; or raises the minor third, flatted sixth and flattened seventh intervals by a semitone when changing from a minor to a major chord. Other notes are not changed. Use for parts which respond to major/minor chords, e.g. Intros and Endings.
NATURAL MINOR 5th Var.:
In addition to the table above, augmented and diminished chords affects the 5th note of the pattern.
DORIAN:
This table lowers the third and seventh intervals in the scale by a semitone when changing from a major to a minor chord; or raises the minor third and flattened seventh intervals by a semitone when changing from a minor to a major chord. Other notes are not changed. Use for parts which respond to major/minor chords, e.g. Intros and Endings.
DORIAN 5th Var.:
In addition to the table above, augmented and diminished chords affects the 5th note of the pattern.
The following table types are available for Note Transposition Rule "Guitar":
(SFF2 format only. More)
ALL-PURPOSE:
This table covers both strummed- and arpeggio-played sound.
STROKE:
Suitable for stroke-played sound of the guitar. Some notes may sound as if it is muted. This is normal condition when the chord is played on guitar by stroke.
ARPEGGIO:
Suitable for arpeggio-played sound of the guitar. Using this table, four notes arpeggio sounds most beautiful.
High Key
HIGH KEY specifies the upper root limit.
Chords with a root higher than the specified limit will be played in the octave immediately below the high-key limit.
This setting is effective only when the NTR parameter (above) is set to ROOT TRANS.
Example:
When HIGH KEY = F.
Root Motion: C C# D F F#
Notes Produced: C3-E3-G3 / C#3-F3-G#3 / D3-F#3-A3 / F3-A3-C4 / F#2-A#2-C#3
Note Low Limit / Note High Limit
NOTE LIMIT LOW and HIGH specify the low and high note limits for all notes in the specified part.
Notes outside this range are transposed to the nearest octave within the range.
Example:
When LOW = C3 and HIGH = D4
Root Motion: C C# D#
Notes Produced: E3-G3-C4 / F3-G#3-C#4 / D#3-G3-A#3
Retrigger Rule
RTR (Retrigger Rule) specify how notes held through chord changes will be handled. These settings are available:
STOP:
The note is stopped, and resumes sounding from the next note data.
PITCH SHIFT:
The pitch of the note will bend without attack to match the type of the new chord.
PITCH SHIFT TO ROOT:
The pitch of the note will bend without attack to match the root of the new chord.
RETRIGGER:
The note is retriggered with attack at a new pitch matching the new chord type.
RETRIGGER TO ROOT:
The note is retriggered with attack at a new pitch matching the new chord root.
Bass On
If set, the channel recognizes on-bass chords allowed in the Fingered On Bass mode, regardless of the NTT setting.
Auto Start
If set, the channel will start playing when a key is pressed (if Sync Start is On). Normally used for Drum and Percussion channels.
Editable
If set, the channel can be edited in the Keyboard Style Creator.
Active Keys
If a note value (e.g. the "A" note) is set to "On", all "A" notes in the channel will play.
If a note value is set to "Off" all notes of this value in the channel will be muted.
Valid note values:
C - C# - D - Eb - E - F - F# - G - Ab - A - Bb - B
Active Chords
If a chord type (e.g. the "aug" chord) is set to "On", all "aug" chords in the channel will play.
If a chord type is set to "Off" all chords of this type in the channel will be muted.
This feature in conjunction with the Redirection schema makes it possible to create multiple pattern channels for one voice, e.g. the Bass channel.
Often one channel is designed for Major chords, another one for minor chords and a third one for 7th chords.

Valid chord types:
Maj, Maj6, Maj7, M7#11, Madd9, M7(9), M6(9), aug, m, m6, m7, m7b5, m(9), m7(9), m7(11), mM7, mM7(9), dim, dim7, 7, 7sus, 7b5, 7(9), 7(#11), 7(13), 7(b9), 7(b13), 7(#9), M7aug, 7aug, 1+8, 1+5, sus4, 1+2+5

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 09:51:54 AM »
Thanks Nikola for the comprehensive information.
Transitions between chords would sound better if vArranger uses these rules.
Dan, is it possible to implement it to vArranger?

Offline Igor Electronician

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 10:17:12 AM »
By the way, this problem with NTR in vA2 has long been known. But, unfortunately, unanswered...  ;)

Offline nikola

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2017, 05:58:09 PM »
I think that Dan will fix this.

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 06:24:15 PM »
Isn't it defined in CASM - L.Limit and H.Limit?
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/casmedit/

Offline nikola

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 12:38:00 PM »
I hope that Dan is reading this Topic and have to say something !!!

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 08:35:44 AM »
I also hope.

Offline olivier71500

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2018, 07:15:21 AM »
UP

Offline v.muller

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Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 11:48:14 AM »
Hallo Dan

I'm trying to understand Yamaha's transposition rule.
I used style EPBallad.sty, variation Main A (only 1 bar), played on my PSR S550.

Here is the result:

Chord C is simply shifted only to these chords: B, C#, and D

----------------------------------------------------------------

The chord Eb arises as follows:
Tone C from chord C is shifted -2 to Bb
Tone E from chord C is shifted -1 to Eb
Tone G from chord C remains in place

Chords Eb then can be simply shifted to chords E, F, and F#
----------------------------------------------------------------

The chord G arises as follows:
Tone C from chord C is shifted -1 to B
Tone E from chord C is shifted -2 to D
Tone G from chord C remains in place

Chords G then can be simply shifted to chords G#, A, and B

----------------------------------------------------------------
The piano - left hand is in a different track and it is "bass" not "chord",
so it is transposed normally.

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 10:24:51 AM »
7th chords are divided by the same system:

B7, C7, C#7, D7
Eb7, E7, F7, F#7
G7, Ab7, A7, Bb7

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2019, 02:28:16 PM »
I'm going to try to record these chords using a modified style file.
I will change velocities of the notes, so It will be clear, which note is source for which note.
If my assumption is correct, then for example base note of chord Eb is not derived from C but from E in chord C.

Online Dan

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2019, 07:12:37 PM »
I recently started to look at this transposition "chords" rules
The main advantage is that it will sound better with notes played in arpeggio type and will also result in less gap between notes, so when changing chords, the re-pitched notes will sound more natural
But discovered how huge work it was, so I need to find some smart musical rules to handle this
However, I can start with major and minor chords, and 7 and MAJ7 as they are the most used chords
Each chord type is a big world in itself !
v.muller, thank you for your positive help in different topics.
I will tell you, if I need a specific work to be done for this topic

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2019, 07:55:13 AM »
Hi Dan

Many thanks for the reply and for your interest.
I thing it is very important, to fix this, mainly due to consistency of harmony.
Big jumps in chords does not sound good.

I think it works this way:

CM7 chord is devided into 2 tracks:
C - Bass
E G B - Chord

The base tone (C) is transposed normally.

Tones E G B are simply transposed only for chords BM7 C#M7 and DM7.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Chord EbM7
- Base note (Eb) is transposed from C (base note of CM7)
- note G is from G
- note Bb is from B
- note D is from E

Chords EM7 FM7 and F#M7 are transposed from EbM7
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Chord GM7
-Base note (G) is transposed from C (base note of CM7)
- note B is from B
- note D is from E
- note F# is from G

Chords G#M7 AM7 and BbM7 are transposed from GM7

Offline olivier71500

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2019, 09:57:21 AM »
v.muller :
"I thing it is very important, to fix this, mainly due to consistency of harmony.
Big jumps in chords does not sound good."

=> +1

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2019, 10:13:55 AM »
It works exactly as I expected.
I modified note volumes in style file - other volume for other source note.
The picture shows notes with the same volume with the same collor.

Btw. the bass notes are from other track in the style file.

Offline v.muller

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Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2019, 06:59:47 AM »
Some official information from Yamaha PSR-S770 User Manual:

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 05:12:28 PM »
I would like to explain, what I found.

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2019, 12:04:59 AM »
Hi Dan.
Do you have any progress in this?
If you need, I'm ready to help you.

Online Dan

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2019, 09:27:17 PM »
This will be a lot improved in the next vArranger version  ;)

Offline v.muller

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2019, 05:31:51 PM »
Great!  :)

Offline nikola

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2019, 01:00:50 AM »
Hi Dan.
Just to mention I have started this discusion on 22 June 2017, today is 29 April 2019, near 2 Years, and steel vA2 is the same with Yamaha Styles...

Now Im using Korg Pa4x76.

Regards
Nikola
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 01:07:19 AM by nikola »

Online Dan

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2019, 10:12:17 AM »
Yes, it took time. It was indeed very challenging ! (For example, you can record a style chord in F Major 11th inversion 1 and play it to C#minor 13 inversion 2... so much possibilities to take care... Crazy hard work)
The good news, is that the next coming version of vArranger will include a MAJOR improved arranger engine that take care very well of inversions
I am actually trying to derive those new improved rules to the YAMAHA ROLAND KORG KETRON TECHNICS engine. Each engine has its own particularities...

From my initial testing, the next vArranger version will be a LOT better !!!!!!!  :)

Offline haweneu

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2019, 10:58:16 AM »
Hi,
very good feature!
But has the next version also SD1000 effect dsp save and restore settings?
Then my Dream would be come real! :)

best regards
Werner

Offline nikola

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2019, 01:22:56 PM »
I can steel use vA2 and Korg pa4x together.
Can you send me this new version vA2 for testing Dan?

Online Dan

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Re: Major Chords played on Tyros2 vs vArranger2 are not the same !!!
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2019, 01:27:15 PM »
Things are not yet finished
I hope to release a new version soon