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Hardware/Software Sound Modules for vArranger ??

Started by Jez, September 20, 2012, 08:57:31 AM

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Jez

Other than the Ketron SD2 module, which modules work best with the vArranger ??

I am currently using vArranger with my Yamaha XG softsynth. It sounds ok but I am sure there is lot of room for improvement.
I tried using vArranger to send the MIDI Out to SampleTank2 via LoopMIDI. It sounds great after some tweaking but I haven`t figured out how to save this setting so that next time I click this style it loads up SampleTank with the same setup. Moreover, the SampleTank crashes very often when I try to load a saved setup in the software.

What I am looking out for is:
A decent sound module that plays the vArranger styles without me having to tweak every time.. something like a Midi Map so that everytime I choose a style from vArranger, it should playback with the same settings for effects through the same hardware

Something like a Motif Rack for the Yamaha Styles,  Roland styles routed through the SD-50,  Ketron styles through the SD-2
Will this kind of a setup work so that as soon as I pick a .prs it routes through the Motif rack, and when I pick pat it routes through SD2/SD-1000 ?

If so, then I`ll save up to invest in these hardware modules.. It saves a lot of space you see :)

Thanks

Warm Regards,
Jez


pax_eterna

Once Dan gets vA being able to save the style editing changes for Roland INS and Korg INS data (at the moment it is only Yamaha and Ketron) then my advise would be to stick to ONE module and tweak each style to suit the sounds of the module. And even then your proposed system is fraught with problems, as I write below.

The routing you mention above, where you have vA sending out to three different modules, would be a MIDI tx/rx maze, and without the use of ports, nigh on impossible...I am not sure if vA supports multiple MIDI ports or not...I know the Yamaha racks do, and I think the  Roland racks too (the SC8850 certainly does).

It COULD work using a single port if you restricted the Rx on each module to a group of midi channels, say 1-6 A Yamaha, 7-12 the Roland and 13-16 left for the Ketron...you would do this by setting up filters on each device to ONLY Rx those channels. You would still be left with programming work on the styles, a lot!! But it could work.

You will run into trouble with determining what channels each will rx on or not rx on so that not all play at the same time...in fact my first reaction is that multiple hardware modules will not be workable WITHOUT ports and extensive mapping tweaks.....it COULD be done using software romplers and something like LoopBe 30 which afaik supports ports, but it would be a mountain of work to get it all set up -and to what purpose? When you could reduce all that by using one really good quality module (and no offence to ANY Ketron user here)  the Ketron SD2, or SD4 are not in that category of good quality imo (sound wise, not build)!!

The Motif XS rack, the Roland sc8850 (the other SC series are only 64 note poly not 128 like the 8850) any of the Roalnd JV series or XV series)...now they are seriously good modules!!

So, setup styles to play one module exclusively and I think you will be rewarded far more than trying to cobble together a system that, imo, will be unwieldy at best, and for the most part, in real terms, mostly unworkable..

jm2c :)

Dennis

Dan

#2
Hi Jez,

Does SampleTank allows you to select a sound for a specific Chanel, using a MIDI Program Change message?
If Yes, on vArranger, double click on the track, and change the Bank0/32/Program Change on the top of the Sound Edit screen, to select the sound of the track.
Once you are happy with the sound, you can press SAVE, then SAVE SONG.
Then, each time the style is loaded, it will send the program change messages to SampleTank.
If SampleTank is crashing, maybe there is an update to download and install in their support website?

In every vArranger version, I am improving the internal vArranger midi maps for more styles, and for more midi modules. So be sure to have the latest 1.16 BETA 7.

If you find one style who doesn't sound very good with your module, and you want me to improve it, just send it to me.

ABOUT MULTI MODULES :

For now, you can plug and use up to 3 midi sound modules together with vArranger.

Just go on OPTION/MIDI PORTS, and select your 3 modules for the midi outs 1/2/3

Then, you can right click on every track of vArranger, and select witch midi module you want to use for that track.

Then, when you will SAVE SONG, it will store your module choices too, so that when you will load the style again, it will set every sound for each module too.

What is interesting, is that you can also create some special multi sounds for the right hand, mixing a sound from one module, and one from another module...

Possibilities are endless...

Dan

pax_eterna

So Dan, as it seems clear from the way you have written,  that vA is using the MIDI ports structure, do you think you must also advise that the receiving devices (if they have no in-built port selection, and most don't - [although the SD4 can RX on two different ports, I think one is reserved for MIDI keyboard in - which means he will need to route the controller into the pc and not direct to the device] that he will also need three physical hardware outs, to match the three ports? Otherwise the same data will go to all three devices on the same channels at the same time. Unless of course he divided the midi hardware devices to only receive on a group of specific midi channels as I outlined above....

If they are simply "daisy-chained" or thru'd,  to use the midi vernacular,  via one midi out from the midi interface this is what will happen, regardless of how many ports you use...

D

Dan

There is no need of using more than one physical midi IN on each module

pax_eterna

Oh okay cool, I assume you have the software configuration set up for porting already. Have you physically tried it with different branded modules or just the SD4 ?

This is interesting and opens it up to a whole range of things - especially as one can use midi files within vA - you could even use one of the ports to tx to a vocal module (eg TC Helicon Harmony M) or to , well, whatever..

Imagine vA running into a Yamaha Motif XS Rack and a Roland XV5080 - WOW!!!!!

The possibilities  mmmm  mmmmmm!!!! :o

Dennis

Jez

Thanks Dan and Dennis. I do not know if the ST2 responds to MIDI Program changes. I think it should.   I have read that  Halion does have this MIDI capability. Whats more.. Halion 4 coming from the Yamaha-Steinberg stable does have these fancy articulations in their vsti ..similar to the hardware synths. And if ST2 does have this facility to be able to receive program changes etc. then I may consider the Ik`s Total Workstation bundle going now at an insane "value for money" price of 159 Euros.. includes about 20,000 sounds spanning over 43 GB .. now thats huge !!! I am sure I will be able to find the 16 sounds out of this for each style ! :D

So vArranger + Halion + SampleTank should be a great setup on paper. Whether the whole combination actually clicks as smooth as it sounds is not yet known. I am out of town now. Will check the ST2 program change thing once I am back.

fazfaz

Hello,
My experience :
I'am using actually the three midi in and three midi out of vArranger.
Midi IN 1 : M-Audio Axiom 61 for Styles and solo
Midi IN 2 : LoopMidi IN, virtual midi cable
Midi IN 3 : M-Audion MiniKeyboard 32 for controllers
Midi OUT 1 : Roland EM55 Hardware Expander
Midi OUT 2 : Roland JV-1080 Hardware Expander
Midi OUT 3 : LoopMidi Out, Cantabile Host VST with Halion 4, Halion Sonic, SampleTank, and so on for Styles and Solo.

I also use a mini pc keyboard for controllers who "speaks" with vArranger by Bluetooth.

vArranger is not afraid by all this people and works perfectly, without latency.

The Paradise  ;D ;D ;D

pax_eterna

#8
As I said earlier you DO need more than one "physical" output..in other words you cannot attach a single midi out interface, and use it for the 2nd and 3rd midi out option - If I run three separate midi interfaces, than this option will work. I attach a pic that shows what I mean...

fazfaz

Ok you are right. I use for hardware expander (vArranger midi out A and B) a midi interface M-Audio Midisport 2x2 (2 IN, 2 OUT).

pax_eterna

Yes Faz, you are 100% correct -  using your midi i/f would present no problems as it supplies two hardware ports...so referring back to the OP, he must then use a multi port hardware USB device for more than one external sound module...which is essentially what I said in the first place :)

D

Jez

Dan,

Is the SD2/SD4 the ideal module for vArranger ? I don`t have access to any Ketron gear here in India. Perhaps, there are some used ones here.  I`ll search it out.
Does the vArranger with Ketron SD2/SD4 sound better than say the vArranger with Halion(I read in other thread that Halion does have problem in the second drum track from the vArranger) Any demos of how the vArranger sounds with Halion and say the same style played through the SD2 ? It would be great if we have one simple .pat and .prs style demoed through both of these (Halion and SD2)

I can afford to do the tweaking with a software synth to make it sound good.... since I play at home... so no risk in terms of messing up in public ;)
just messing up big time privately !!! :D  but I love it when I do get it right :)

Eventually in the future I will be going for a solution that has all the stuff from Yamaha Ketron, Roland.... and some day from Korg (Dan,  I know you`re working on this Thanks:)..  in one place ... So that would be like three or four sources connected..  Sd2 for .pat , bk-7m for the .stl, motif rack for .prs and the MP-10 Pro for the Korg ones when its available :)

For now though I don`t mind experimenting with Halion/SampleTank2 to see if it gives something better than SD2.
Would be great if someone could post demos of the styles played using Halion and SD2 to make a good comparison

And yes I`ll check out if the program change instructions are recd by SampleTank2

Thanks guys !!




Dan

Hi Jez,

Can you post one style that you like, and I will record for you the sound with the SD2, and with Halion Sonic

Jez

Thanks Dan.

Any 8 beat country or 4/4 ballad style will do.

Dan

Do you want me to record a Ketron style, Yamaha style or Roland style?

Jez

One Yamaha Style and One Ketron Style... Just the chords changes on variation D will do. Thanks much.
I could find a guy here who is selling his Ketron SD-2 module .... perhaps the only one in the country :)  But the SD-1000 will definitely be a step up and I can ask my friend in the US to get it here when he comes over. 
Meanwhile if Halion is able to play the Yamaha styles with a decent sound then I`ll temporarily go for it and later buy the SD-1000.

Also importantly does the Halion respond to MIDI Program Changes ?

Jez

Just an update.. I tried the vArranger with Sample Tank and it sounds good after selecting the right sounds. Unfortunately it is not responding to MIDI Program changes. I tried to set up a GM map in Sample Tank. But the moment I change the MIDI program change in vArranger for a particular track, Sample Tank crashes
and I just can`t test it out... I am sure its the problem of the Sample Tank software because it crashes often even when I don`t use vArranger with it (When I save a combi it crashes.. don`t know what`s the reason)

fazfaz, you mentioned you are using SampleTank with vArranger.  Did you face this problem too ?  How did you set it up ?

fazfaz

The IK Multimedia GM workstation is Sonic Synth.

Jez

fazfaz,

Does Sonik Synth respond to MIDI Program Changes ?  Are you able to recall the saved instrument setting of the style in vArranger virtually connected to Sonik synth ?
And more importantly does it crash very often ? :)  Surely I have to get these points noted before I buy either IK`s Total Workstation/Steinberg Halion - which ever sounds great and is stable enough in opertaions. Thanks.

Warm Regards,
Jez

Jez

An update: I went ahead and bought the IK Multimedia Total Workstation Bundle.  It has a studio`s worth of sounds. Scrolling through and trying the patches can take decades :D. The sounds are great to awesome !!  For working with vArranger, I am saving the instrument setting as a combi in Sample Tank. So when I want to play a song I load the corresponding combi. Everytime I need to change to a different song, I loose a few seconds to load the style and combi.. I can afford that since I play in the comfort of my home :)

Within the sounds, they have given a 1.3 gig GM library (OmniSynth2)... this is by far the best software GM soundset I have tried.. much better than the older Native Instruments Bandstand.  There is a GM Map and some facility to receive Program Changes. I`ll explore that when I get time. But till then I am playing using the  very high quality non-GM sounds.

Dan, one question... How do we switch between different right hand voices by hitting a button on the MIDI Controller. This is what I am trying to achieve:
There are three buttons on my Midi Controller. When I hit button1 it sets Right hand voice 1 on Ch 13. When I hit button2, it sets Right hand voice 2 on either Ch13 or Channel 14 with channel 13 muted. When I hit button 3, it sets Right Hand Voice 3 on either channel 13/Channel 15 with channels 13 and 14 muted.
So at any point of time, I can switch to a different voice for each variation.




Dan

The ideal is that vArranger is sending the program changes by MIDI and Sampletank load the right sounds.
You did differently, and loaded the sounds directly on SampleTank. Why not....

I just downloaded the IK Sampletank FREE, to try it.
From what I see, you can define 128 instruments who will react to ProgramChange.
So if you like a piano sound, you can decide that everytime vArranger sends to Sampletank the ProgramChange 0, it will load the piano sound for that channel.
Unfortunately, it does not seems to accept BANK 0 and BANK 32 to allow more than 128 sounds.
This is bad because the drumkits are not in the 128 GM sounds, but can be found in other banks.
So what you can do is to put a gm drum kit at the Program change 127.

For controlling with your Keyboard, I have a good idea, I don't have too much time now to explain, but I will do it.

My idea is to create 4 USER SOUNDS in vArranger, everyone playing on one Right track.
Then place those 4 Users sounds on your MYSOUNDS bar.

I will explain to you more on Tuesday evening, when I will be back

Jez

Thanks Dan. The software seems to crash the moment it receives the Program Change. I have raised a support ticket with IK Multimedia on this .. lets see what they have to tell about this. That`s what prompted me to create and load the combi for the songs I am trying to play. Tell you what ... the number of sounds are about 20,000 and I can prepare a map of only 128 :)  That`s fine with me but the whole thing needs to be crash free. 

vArranger plays best with the SD-2 I have come to know this.. so I may go that way later  if the used SD-2 is still for sale.  Till then,  I don`t regret this deal I got for the Total Workstation Bundle and enjoying the combination of vArranger with this even though there is some tweaking and configuring to do.

What I have noted is that when playing  with the Roland styles there seems to be a polyphony note cut.  I still have the version 1.16 Beta 4  I `ll try out with the latest version. Perhaps it could even be a limitation of  my Audio card.. its an old M-Audio :)

Was wondering how I would select a Sample Tank 2 preset and load into the user sounds of vArranger. The combi approach is also not bad as I can save the effects from Sample Tank.

Have fun :)

Warm Regards,
Jez



Tidom

#22
Hello
As I read your comment about the problem of crash your system when you use Sample Tank and
Varranger I just want to say that the sound cards are also the cause of these problems. So I used a M-Audio  sound card and I occasionally crash the system.
2 reasons were problems and especially
1 - USB problems
2 - the sound card.
Since I bought the Edirol soundcard UMG-2 I have no problem.
Of course other cards UMG-1 UM-G3 work equally well.
This is my experience but Dan will tell you can be better!
Bye !
Tidom