Author Topic: Changing the volume of user sounds  (Read 1426 times)

Offline BjayG

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Changing the volume of user sounds
« on: December 24, 2018, 03:21:25 PM »
Hi,

A Merry Xmas to you all.

Dan - PLEASE can I have a XMAS present?

Every time I use vA (and I do try often because I think it is very good) - I get so frustrated I stop using it.   But maybe I am missing something again (as I certainly was with split point saving)!

So lets try and explain, and hopefully fix, my main frustration - which is related to the volume of simple left and right sounds (as the song moves along).

So if you take a very simple example   (using the SD1000 or SD2):-

Lets say that we have a song that only uses 1 Left Hand accompaniment sound called 'Dark String' and that we want it at different volumes for different parts of the song  (e.g 10% for the first verse, 40% for first chorus, 30% for second verse, 50% for second chorus etc).   The problem is that there is no easy way, that I can discover, to do this as the volume (in this case) of 'LEFT 1' always remains at 100% and the volume of 'MASTER LEFT' remains what it was when you loaded the song.

The only way that I can see currently to solve this problem is to save the 'Dark String' Left Sound as 4 separate user voices, each with a different volume setting, and then add these user sounds separately to the 'left sound bar'.   If this is indeed the only way to solve this problem then its frankly daft - because, if nothing else,  it means that the number of user voices ends up getting ever larger.

SO - to my XMAS present :) :  as a suggestion for the solution (as there will be other ways):  can we please have some sort of option that allows you to (say) right click on a voice (user or otherwise) INSIDE the sound bar that says something like 'restore L/R' voice volume to the current setting of Left1/2 or Right 1/2/3/4 on change.   That way there would be a very simple way to deal with volume changes without having to create meaningless user voices.   It should also be easy to keep it compatible with exisiting songs.

Or is there a better way that I haven't yet discovered?

Thanks
Barry

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 04:00:45 PM »
Dan,

Any chance of a response please ...

Thanks
Barry

Offline Dan

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 11:46:21 PM »
Hi Barry,

I don't think right click is a nice solution while playing live.

Having tons of saved sounds is not a problem for the computer. The only problem is that they take too much place on the list

Maybe, a simple right click on a sound and HIDE should be a better solution to this need?

Dan

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2019, 04:49:19 PM »
Hi Dan,

Happy New Year!

> I don't think right click is a nice solution while playing live.
> Having tons of saved sounds is not a problem for the computer. The only problem is that they take too much place on the list
> Maybe, a simple right click on a sound and HIDE should be a better solution to this need?


Thanks for the reply - I agree that being able to hide the excess of user voices is desirable - but it doesn't solve my problem at all...

NOTE: I don't use VSTs in the vA environment - so the following comments are related purely to the use of the SD1000, SD2:-

I agree with you that vA has great capability for live playing.    But where I think it is not so good is when you reload the song to start playing, as there are too many potential things that need adjusting before you start playing that could lead to something vital being overlooked.  In my opinion, you should ALWAYS be able to load exactly what you stored when you set up a song in the first place, as leaving something to chance (particularly when gigging [I Don't]) is asking for trouble.   

I have mentioned the issues many times before - so there is no point in covering the same old ground in detail again - but I (and others) do feel vA fails to store all it should in the basic song structure.
 
HOWEVER:  How I started this thread is that my biggest complaint is about settings of sounds at song startup.  I feel its a very odd design decision of having to always save sounds/voices as USER sounds/voices for normal working.   I agree with you that 'Having tons of saved sounds is not a problem for the computer' - but  just because you can store a sound - it doesn't mean you should.    I really don't understand - and have never have understood - why it is not possible to be able to pick some basic sounds and a style; save it to a SONG - and just recover it later by loading the song and pressing 'START' .   

But unless you are prepared to accept a less than ideal sound balance (sometimes settings apparently bizarrely based on what the previous song settings were [I have never nailed THAT down'!!]); or be prepared to change the balance manually whilst you are playing; or save the sounds first as user sounds - then this is not possible with vA.   But why not - it is a really obvious thing to want to do?

Here is what I would like to be able to do using an example:  Say we want 4 basic right hand SD1000 (or SD2) sounds to be saved in the RIGHT MY SOUNDS soundbar:  Trumpet, Saxophone, Piano, Acoustic Guitar.  So there ought to be a simple way to be able to balance the volume of these 4 individual instruments against one another without having to do it manually when playing unless required - or by having to save each of these simple (single) sounds as USER Sounds (just so their volumes are set up initially???).  So, here is I how I would suggest it could be done:-.

1) Select 'RIGHT 1'
2) Select and add Trumpet  (in 'RIGHT 1') to the 'MY SOUNDS' Right Sound bar:
3) Adjust the volume of 'RIGHT 1' to that required at song loading  (i.e. to get the correct volume balance between the sounds).
4) My new suggestion:  Right Click on the 'Trumpet' name in MY SOUNDS and select something like 'Load Sound with volume of RIGHT1/RIGHT2/RIGHT3/RIGHT4 etc'.  NOTE: You don't have to do this step - in which case t works as now  (i.e. loading the volume at 100% as now)
5) Repeat with Saxophone, Piano. Acoustic guitar sounds etc..

ditto of LEFT SOUNDS

This does not affect in any way what happens when you play live - its just settiing the initial volume when the sound is loaded the FIRST time.  This does not affect at all the volume of LEFT or RIGHT sliders in the MAIN VOLUME settings (i.e. the sliders at the right hand side)  If you adjust the volume of the sound manually when playing and you reselect the sound in the MY SOUND sound bar later- then it remains where you set it after you changed it.   This is all about the initial volume setting.

I hope this makes sense - I really don't see that this adds anything other than a positive facility to vA - but it will make life a lot simpler.   A bonus would be that there would be much less need for storing user sounds.

But as said when I started this thread - if I have misunderstood something about the way vA works and there is a better solution then somebody please tell me!

Barry

Offline Dan

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2019, 06:29:52 PM »
What you should do is to SAVE SONG many times with different names, exp VERSE, CHORUS ... (like when you save many registrations on a Yamaha keyboard) with different RIGHT and LEFT main volumes

In this case, I plan to improve the transition between songs, so it will be as smooth as possible

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2019, 01:15:24 PM »
Hi Dan,

Have you ever thought of becoming a politician (I hear some guys with yellow jackets say there might be a vacancy at the Elysee Palace soon) ?  ;)

As, unfortunately,  you always seem to answer a different question to the one I ask...

In this case, I plan to improve the transition between songs, so it will be as smooth as possible

Yes - yet again I completely approve of what you are saying!     

But how about answering my original question?   I asked whether it would please be possible to have the facility to 'optionally' be able to save the current volume settings of Right 1-4 (or Left1-3) in the sound bar - such that when that sound is loaded its volume is initialised to those settings.  This is rather than having to save user sounds every time.     I really don't see that this is a big thing to do and does not interfere in any way with the way vA works - but it does open up an easier and cleaner way of working. 

Please???     I am sure you would not want to disappoint an Englishman who is already completely depressed by his idiotic and incompetent (so called)  politicians who after nearly 3 years of (so called) negotiating cannot work out how they will handle Brexit (if indeed they still want to).    You wouldn't be THAT cruel ...

Thanks
Barry


Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 03:27:47 PM »
Come on Dan - you have not yet answered my specific request - so please don't fall back to your old ways of ignorning messages - .

My suggestion was sensible and practical; cannot be that difficult to implement;  will simplify some working practices and will not conflict with the current way of doing things.

Please ...

Barry

Offline BjayG

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Re: Setting the volume of sounds when loaded
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 01:38:26 PM »
Dan,

Another 2 weeks have gone by and STILL you have not answered my request...

This is not an unreasonable request and would be easy to implement - with no impact at all on the way that vA works now - but would have a huge impact on usability. 

Not being able to load a sound with the volume with which it was stored is a serious issue and having to save it as a new user sound every time you change its startup volume in order to do this is frankly nuts!

You may not think this is important - but I have spoken to other users of vA who think it IS a problem and I know of  2 people who have sold their copy of VA largely because of this annoyance and related issues.

Barry

Offline lakere

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 05:57:28 AM »
Nothing is worse than "silent treatment" in communication.   Thanks to good suggestions and feature requests from users like and Bluebeat, vArranger can get better and better and possibly lure more new users.   

Dan, these are your loyal customers and supporters.  It would be only good and right for you to give some response and better yet start working on the features.

BjayG, I don't know if this is going to happen, but Dan sometimes responds on Facebook.   


Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 01:16:31 PM »
Dear Lakere,

Many thanks for your support - I have no idea why Dan continues to insult his customers in this way.   He clearly doesn't seem to understand, or care, that potential customers who view this forum can see his bad attitude (around 500 views of this thread alone).   And if I was one of them thinking about buying such an expensive piece of software - then maybe it would make me rethink it  (maybe I wish I had!).

I have said from the very beginning that if I have somehow misunderstood how sound volume saving works even after 6 years of use - then could somebody please correct me.   I am completely baffled as to why Dan is wedded to the current way of saving sound volumes (i.e. as individual user sounds with specific set volumes) and the fact that you cannot set the volume of a simple sound using a volume slider and have it restored to what it was when you saved it.  In any other piece of software this would be regarded as a serious bug - but in vA its clearly considered to be a plus.

If Dan had no intention of answering then why not just say: "stupid suggestion, go away!".  All that happens is that it makes his customers more annoyed - and, remember, we do talk about our experiences to our musical friends  (or potential customers as they are otherwise known as)!   

Poor customer service!

Barry

Offline v.muller

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 11:05:02 AM »
I think the problem is that the vArranger is too big project for one person.
It is necessary to understand that the development of such application + support takes a lot of time.
Perhaps Dan finds the right solution to this situation.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 02:39:47 PM »
I do not believe it is a "big" project for one person, but it is a big project for one person who is only partially engaged in it.  I would love to see vArranger evolve,  especially now when computers got very fast, so there is almost no hardware limitation. Several very good suggestions were offered to Dan on this forum. I support the idea of modular updates.

Fix bugs / maintain to have compatibility with future windows updates - free.

And have annual comprehensive cumulative updates packages which would include new features and requests - paid, with proper pricing structure: discounted for somebody who supports yearly and to people who want to do it every few. As most software these days.









Offline Carlo

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 04:15:28 PM »
It is necessary to understand that the development of such application + support takes a lot of time.


Believe me, it is !
But some people here have no idea and are very impatient…  >:(

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 04:48:22 PM »
2 responses:

1) Charging for updates will not make anything any quicker - when you eventually get them (if you do) it just costs more.  No - I do not agree with paying for extra facilities which ought to have been included in the first place.  This is a 350 Euro program - not a cheap knock up.   Even the FULL professional version of Cubase is not THAT much more expensive at 550 Euros and look what it does in comparison.   If it had Cubases range of facilities and sophistication then additions would be right to cost more.   Also I do not belive Dan adjusts his time wisely.   It may be fun to decode the file structure of every style format on the planet - but did we actually need them all up front when there are more imprortant basic things to be done to improve the usability of the program.   For goodness sake Techics stopped making arrangers 20 years ago.

2) I well know how much software development actually costs as I was a professional programmer for 20 years (and wrote, and sold, music software for fun).  What I suggested to Dan cannot be that big a job - I can almost visualise the code!   Its whether he wants to do it or not.      What is unacceptable is to just ignore your customers - its the worst way to treat people as it says to them: "I think you are irrelevent and I cannot be bothered" .

Barry

Offline Dan

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2019, 06:16:17 PM »
The buttons in the MY SOUNDS bar are loading a LEFT or RIGHT full preset, that set all the RIGHTS and LEFTS tracks
I don't see them to handle only volumes of tracks when they can actually handle a lot more (program changes, pan, reverb etc...)

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2019, 03:27:06 AM »
Barry,
if you are arranger fan, you probably remember how much PSR500 was? It was groundbreaking for the time! If you had bought that at original price in early 1990, would you still be comparing it with current models...which are almost same price as that one was if you take inflation into account?

I watched vArranger for a long time before I made a purchase. Last major update was vsynth, that is what got me sold. After that only relatively small progress. 

vArranger is outgoing technology, but still can shine years to come and have very creative uses.  I personally think that Dan has to do the right thing and push vArranger a notch up. And I honestly do not care if he drops the price to 150 euro or so, to have the cash flow to stay busy on software / get help, or charges reasonable fee for features (*not for bug fixes) rather than see it go to limbo .

What saddens me the most, that there is no open discussion... from Dan or users. No timeline (or any solid confirmation for that matter) to develop new bold features, not just minor adjustments. No backup plan (remember Live-Styler?)...

Dan, I do not blame you, you are just a human, but I feel that time is running out to make right choices on vArranger before it becomes too dusty. I am saying this not to hurt you, but because I care for the future of your soft. Please re-think strategy to breeze some life into vArranger.

Final chapter.
BIAB, finally after many years of holding back released 64bit version and a VST.
VSTsynthfont developer made a big push last year to polish his VST and got contracted by PG, promoting his work to thousands of users!

Dan, your turn now :)








Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2019, 02:39:07 PM »

Hi Dan,

Thanks for replying - much appreciated. 

>The buttons in the MY SOUNDS bar are loading a LEFT or RIGHT full preset, that set all the RIGHTS and LEFTS tracks
>I don't see them to handle only volumes of tracks when they can actually handle a lot more (program changes, pan, reverb etc...)

But this is where I think the problem is.   If you have combination sounds (i.e. several sounds mixed together and treated as one sound 'item') then saving the sound as a user sound makes complete sense - as you say.

But the problem comes if you use simple sounds (i.e. one voice sounds)  - e.g. piano, trombone, guitar, strings - then the whole user sound saving mechanism is complete overkill and is extremely frustrating.   I will try to give you a simple example and I really don't know how to solve this without unnecessarily resorting to user sounds.

SO -  You have a style with 4 sections A, B, C, D - each of which gets increasingly 'busy'/louder as it moves along - and that you want to complement this with a simple left hand string backing sound.  Obviously the volume of this string backing will need to get louder as the song moves through the increasingly busy/louder style sections.  There is no simple way, I know of, of automatically balancing the string volume against the increasingly busy backing as you move through the song without using user sounds. 

The problem is:  You move the string sound (i.e. 'Strings Ens' from the SD1000) located in Left 1 into the sound bar and adjust its volume using the Left 1 volume slider.  This is fine and you can get the volume to how you want it.  However, the next time you click that sound in the sound bar - the volume goes back to 100%.     IF, somehow, the sound bar actually remembered the volume of Left 1 (in this case) - then you could either use the 'Link' facility to have different versions of 'Strings Ens' each with a different volume level of Left 1 - or you could adjust it manually. Thus - the former would allow automatic increased volumes of the backing string sound as you moved through the style sections.     

Unfortunately the only way I know of solving this problem is to save the 'Strings Ens' sound multiple times as a user sound each with a different volume of the general LEFT volume and then insert these into the sound bar.   The problem with this is that it is unnecessarily complicated;  results in a large number of similar user sounds being stored (e.g. StringsEnsVol10%,   StringsEnsVol20%, StringsEnsVol30%, StringsEnsVol40%, StringsEnsVol50%, StringsEnsVol60%, StringsEnsVol70%, StringsEnsVol80%,  etc. - [OK - I'm exaggerating for effect!]);  and means that if you want to tweak the volume you have to resave the user sound yet again.   

Its possible that my proposed solution isn't the best one or even workable.   But what I think you should be doing is to add some sort of simple mechanism that will allow simple (one sound) sounds to be used and have their volumes adjusted using the main panel without having to go through so many hoops to get it to work.  Having the Left 1-3 and Right 1-4 volumes returning to 100% automatically always feels like some sort of bug to me (but I know it isn't).

Finally I won't make any specific comments on Bluebeat's post, although I do agree with a lot of what he says.  However, what I will say is that I too am on your side - as I think vArranger is a great program with a lot of future potential - but some of the usability basics really need ironing out.

Barry

Offline ElTyros

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 04:00:40 PM »

Its possible that my proposed solution isn't the best one or even workable.   But what I think you should be doing is to add some sort of simple mechanism that will allow simple (one sound) sounds to be used and have their volumes adjusted using the main panel without having to go through so many hoops to get it to work.  Having the Left 1-3 and Right 1-4 volumes returning to 100% automatically always feels like some sort of bug to me (but I know it isn't).

Finally I won't make any specific comments on Bluebeat's post, although I do agree with a lot of what he says.  However, what I will say is that I too am on your side - as I think vArranger is a great program with a lot of future potential - but some of the usability basics really need ironing out.

Barry
+1: Quand je fais un save song les volumes master L et R sont mémorisés et quand je le rappelle les curseurs se positionnent bien aux volumes mémorisés mais le son peut être a 100% OU 0%
ça ne le fait pas a chaque fois ?? y a t'il un "embouteillage" de données lors du changement ??? Pour info je n'utilise que des VSTI pour L et R
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 10:34:21 AM by ElTyros »

Offline ElTyros

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds "EUREKA"
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 06:08:21 PM »
Comme ce problème de volume commence à m'agacer quelque peu
car il ne se produis pas toujours j'ai cherché .....
ce n'est pas un problème avec save song !!

Alors : chaque voices Left ou Right ont un volume dans les presets du VST
équivalant à celui lors de leur création .Chez moi 100%.
à l'appel direct des voices tant que le master L ou R ne bouge pas
le volume est donc de 100% AieAie les oreilles....
il suffit de bouger le curseur L ou R d'un chouya pour que le volume réagisse.
Donc si par exemple le master R est a 40% tant que je ne bouge pas celui-ci et que je sélectionne par exemple piano1
le volume est à 100% , piano2 100% ect.

Voilà donc pourquoi ça me prenais le choux avec les save song qui fonctionnaient ou pas
c'est en fonction des cases cochées lors de la sauvegarde, si les volumes R ou L sont sélectionnés
et qu'ils ont des valeurs différentes, de song en song, là ça réagis et j'ai bien mes volumes à la bonne valeur
par contre si les volumes sont identiques ou si la sauvegarde des volumes n'est pas active comme le master L ou R ne bouge pas c'est la cata.

Voili voilà

Ma parade est donc avec les Save Song, c'est de mémoriser les masters volume L ou R avec un delta de 1 pour faire bouger le ou les curseurs mais ce n'est pas top avouons le.

Dan, peux tu voir cela ? je peux te proposer , mais c'est peut-être pas très "propre" coté programmation, c'est qu'à chaque changement de voice
faire un -1 +1 (qui passeras inaperçu pour les oreilles) sur les curseurs respectifs pour les faire réagir et recaler les volumes dans le VST.

Merci pour ton travail et ce fameux logiciel .............................


BjayG peux-tu tester de ton coté
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 06:12:44 PM by ElTyros »

Offline Dan

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 10:20:18 PM »
Can you please start a new TOPIC in the FRENCH forum for your different problem?

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2019, 01:46:52 PM »
ElTyros,

My appologies - but I don't speak very good French - so I had to resort to putting your message  through' Google Translate' and the translation left me totally confused as to what you wanted me to to do.     

So if Dan could please provide me with a brief translation of the relevent bits then that would be much appreciated please.

Thanks
Barry

Offline Dan

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 02:00:50 PM »
His problem has nothing to do with your need in this topic, and in another language...
It is something specific to VST, and you don't use VST

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2019, 07:04:54 PM »
Hi Dan,

Thanks - thats much appreciated.  I wasn't sure what he was asking me.

Regards
Barry

Offline v.muller

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2019, 12:20:35 PM »
Yamaha keyboards with 4 Main variations has 4 OTS (One Touch Settings).
When the function "OTS Link" is activated, every Main variation is linked to one of these OTS.
Main A is linked to OST 1, Main B is linked to OTS 2, Main C is linked to OTS 3 and Main D is linked to OTS4.
So, when you change the Main variation, the keyboard automatically change voice(s) (and their settings) for right hand.

I thing this could be useful to have the ability to select voices and their settings for every Main variation.

Offline Carlo

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2019, 06:23:51 PM »
This is already implemented…

See Online Manual "5.8. MY SOUNDS"

Quote
The frame "MY SOUNDS" contains a LINK Button that takes the colour RED when the feature is enabled or grey otherwise.

This great feature allows you automatically to change the timbre of the LEFT and RIGHT section depending on the variation in play.
The Buttons will be the first four bars MY SOUNDS.


Offline v.muller

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2019, 07:36:23 PM »
Thank you Carlo.

Offline BjayG

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Re: Changing the volume of user sounds
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2019, 11:46:45 AM »
Dan,

It is now 5 months since I first created this thread and you have not directly answered my original question yet - just tinkered around the edges like some politician.

This is frankly disrespectful

Barry