Author Topic: Export song as midi. Starting point question.  (Read 1542 times)

Offline bluebeat

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Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« on: February 03, 2019, 04:44:33 PM »
Hi Folks, Dan.

I have a question. At "Song Chords" when I have the arrangement... I do "Export" to save it as Midi file.
When I open that midi file in Daw, it does not start from the "start" it has a few seconds of silence (all tracks)
Is this normal?

Please let me know.
Thanks.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 04:51:39 PM »
Yes. There is ONE musical bar of silence before music starts.
This is a common way to do with midifiles, as if you put all the init midi messages (program changes...) together with the first note at the first midi time, the midi synth will be stressed too much and often will not play in time

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2019, 07:10:13 PM »
Dan,
Please see attached image. Am I not reading it right? But it seems more than one bar...
Kindly let me know.
Thanks.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2019, 07:11:54 PM »
Are you sure the style's Intro 4 does not have an almost empty bar? :)

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 11:05:53 PM »
Dan,
Not when it plays in Varranger... Starts on "Start" button.
I believe when you use "song chords" for arrangement,  varranger re-compiles style to midi file.

...And what you said earlier, leaves "One musical bar"...

But this is not one bar, not even 2 bars... something else. Can you please explain?

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 11:17:09 PM »
Can you post the original vArranger exported midifile, so I will see at what measure it really starts

Offline Lylo

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2019, 09:36:50 AM »
It's really important ?  ???

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2019, 02:44:07 PM »
Lylo,
Not terribly important, I can find the start of the first note. I was just curious why vArranger is doing this.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2019, 03:08:13 PM »
vArranger export to midifile feature should be well in time, and start right after the first empty bar

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2019, 11:11:42 PM »
Ok...
Dan if you have Cakewalk, please open this Midi, see where the start is. Midi file was not modified, straight from VA.
Thanks.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 07:16:20 AM »
Can you post the original style used?
Maybe something not in time in this style?

Offline bluebeat

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Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 12:56:21 AM »
Hi Dan.
When I import MIDI file from vArranger to BIAB, it has markers. For some strange reason, these markers override part markers that I type in BIAB, causing unwanted results. Also, because MIDI file does not start from the first note (as most MIDI files) it causes BIAB not to sync correctly with their tracks. How can I get a regular MIDI file from vArranger, without extra bars (so it starts on first note) and without extra information such as part markers, that are causing errors.

Please let me know. Thanks.

Offline Dan

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2019, 01:35:13 PM »
Maybe you can ask to BIAB why markers in midifiles cause problems in BIAB
And how to remove first bar in BIAB

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2019, 02:53:13 PM »
Dan,
that was not the answer I was hoping for.
I think that is happening because:

A) Most of midi files start when they should, from the first note, not leaving couple of bars before.
On that subject, I also believe there is a marker for program change, which comes way ahead of first note and BIAB takes that event as a first note, and because it is far apart from first note it is not syncing correctly.

B)Part "markers" are not present is most of midi files.

I am not asking to do extra features, I am asking to be able to not use features that causing problems. BIAB is not designed for importing "extra" third party information, but it is designed to work with standard MIDI files.  I do not have problems with BIAB when I import any random MIDI files from internet, only ones from vArranger. I need to be able to export regular MIDI file, without extra information and from the first bar, as majority of MIDI files are..

Can you please help?

Thank you.

 

Offline Dan

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2019, 03:08:04 PM »
Most of the midifiles includes the first empty bar like vArranger and also have markers
I don't see why this is causing problems in BIAB

Offline Lylo

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2019, 04:24:51 PM »
The sequencer Real Band from BiaB is the only one I find for put some markers can be reading by vArranger, all another sequencers as Reaper, Studio One, Mixbus, Mixcraft... don't work for this.
But I don't know how it work in the another way.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2019, 06:46:14 PM »
Lylo, saving/re-"saving as" in RealBand does not solve the issue.

Dane, please see image. Midi was saved at 115 in vArranger. Marked in red... Program change marker that is way before first note, and tracks start not on even bars. I think two of these issues are not making it right for BIAB. Theses are "extra" stuff that is not usually found in regular Midi files. Is it possible to have a choice to save chord-sheet as regular midi not with extra unwanted markers or wrong position? From note 1 as it supposed to be?


Offline Dan

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2019, 08:19:48 PM »
vArranger export to midifile feature should start in time.
It looks like you have not imported it at time 0. Or the original style has some problem, not starting in time.
Can you please export again from vArranger and post here the style and the midifile so we can check them

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2019, 10:52:50 PM »
Dan,
Midi file in attachment. Yes, imported at 0. Most midi files start on first note. Why tweak or "fix" styles, if you can make "Midi save" from first note, as it should be. And if anybody wants "extra" space, they can make one as long or as short as they need to be, why have vArranger dictate this? Please let me know.
Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2019, 11:31:31 PM »
vArranger should respect the original style
Can you post the original style of this recording? with the STY2 too

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2019, 12:08:26 AM »
It should, but it does not.
My problem is not "style tweaking". My problem is Midi file should be Midi file. As a song (almost any song) it should start from note one.  Essentially, styles are styles and songs are songs. Songs should start from first note. If somebody is using your "extension" that is embedded, it is perfectly fine with me, but why not make option that saves Midi song correctly, as it should be?
That is what I am asking for.

Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2019, 12:26:40 AM »
Some songs don't start at downbeat. The intro melody may starts a bit before. If this note become the time 0, then the entire song will not be time aligned

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2019, 12:58:23 AM »
"Some songs don't start at downbeat..."
Some do not, but majority do. Pick a few random midi songs from internet and see how they start :)
But even what you mentioned, which I agree,  song should start when it should start, not at random time which is not dictated by the song or the style, but the artificial space you created in the front of saved midi song.

Dan, if you can not make it work as it should (correctly)., you can say so...It is extra work for me of course (on all MIDI saved files from VA!), but I will not scream or cry. I do not believe I am asking for "extra" features, I am asking to fix something that is not working correctly.

Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2019, 01:08:22 AM »
We already discussed this https://www.varranger.com/vforum/index.php/topic,3889 :)
And you still not answered to the main question : can you send the original style, so I can check if the style is correct

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2019, 01:22:30 AM »
Yes, I did answer.
And I believe I was as clear as a moon on January sky.
 I do not need a specific style "tweak". It is not about specific style, it is about artificial space that is created by VA, on all styles that are saved as MIDI from Chord sheet. The space that should not be there as with most of MIDI songs.

So, to make this easier for you, if you do not want to eliminate unwanted space, just say so, because that is what is causing the problem for me.

Thank you.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Midi part markers in BIAB... Dan, can you please reply.
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2019, 02:03:08 AM »
Sorry, I followed the link and posted there...
Dan, I believe I answered question clearly.
It is not about "tweaking" particular style(s). It is about extra artificial space  that is put in all MIDI files by vArranger from Chord window.
If you can not make it go away, just say so. Because specifically that is causing the problem when I importing MIDI to other programs.

Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2019, 07:23:32 AM »
I merged the topics
Yes, the first empty bar is something important in midifiles, to let the time to the synth to change all the programs etc... It is better to not remove it, and it should be OK in any software
In your example you have all the events not in place, this is not OK. I can check the reason if you send the original style

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2019, 11:07:08 PM »
Dan,
I forwarded couple of files to PG tech... But I think I am getting closer to understanding why Midi files from VA do not sync correctly to BIAB. I think it is because of events that are happening before they should. Either Part Marker which is embedded at a wrong time or some Program Change at a wrong time.  Please see attached. Random styles, exported as MIDI. The names of the files are the source. Midi songs from internet, sync correctly to the BIAB, not ones saved in VA...
Please let me know what you think.

Thank you.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2019, 01:30:09 PM »
Dan, can you please look at the midi files?
I believe there is some sort of artifact that is tripping BIAB not to sync from  Midi files exported from VA. Midi files from internet sync fine with BIAB. Please let me know.

Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2019, 01:34:29 PM »
Yes ! i can see a problem now with all the midi events have an offset
I think this is a bug introduced since I have added the markers events of the variation
I will correct this

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2019, 01:39:52 PM »
THANK YOU!!!!!

This was driving me insane. Please fix and let me test. This is my workflow, I really need this fixed.

Thank you.


Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2019, 03:55:47 PM »
Hi Dan,
 Do you have a time frame to address this?
If it is not on your priority list, maybe you can unroll buggy part exporter for now, until you have a time /inspiration to figure it out?
Thank you.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2019, 03:13:41 PM »
Bump....
Dan, can you please address this. If you can not fix markers, maybe take this feature out for now, until you do fix it? Or maybe have an option to export midi file without "extra" VA content...

These markers as of now mess up synchronization in BIAB.

Kindly let me know.

Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2019, 03:50:32 PM »
Just sent you an update for you to try

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2019, 02:03:30 PM »
Dan,
First off all, thank you for trying to fix this!

I was away and did not have much time to test this. I tried couple of things that were done recently(already with chord progressions) and seems they sync fine now with BIAB. In  next couple of weeks I will test this with different styles and chord progressions from scratch and from various synths and will post here good or sad news :)

Please do not forget to include this bug fix in the next update!


Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2019, 02:04:40 PM »
Good news :)

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2019, 03:30:58 AM »
Semi-good news...
Dan, there is still an issue, which I believe (90%) is still "marker"related.
File from vArranger syncs ok to real tracks of BIAB...but.. There is some sort of major incompatibility between those marker and how BIAB operates. For example,
1)I was not able to freeze BIAB track(s), it would unfreeze on the next regeneration.
2) I was not able to adjust volumes on BIAB for some tracks, they would slide back to original (wrong) position. I have Halion settings to "forget CC"

I think the only true solution, is an option to save midi file without markers... (check mark?)
It is nice to have markers...but I also believe it is crucial to be able to save a regular midi file also.

Please let me know.
Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2019, 12:14:10 AM »
Better for you to send your midifiles to BIAB author, and asks him why it does not work well
You can try open the midifile in an editor, and remove few events, and check if it is better

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2019, 02:21:27 AM »
Dan,
I did send the file to them before and it was said that incorrect markers are responsible. So you fixed that now, it syncing to real tracks.
I do not understand why it is so hard to make option of exporting MIDI without "extra" stuff.... so it works cleanly on every system?
And for those who want the "markers" you already have that...This is very minor work of excluding a few code lines from export.
Not sure why it is so hard?

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2019, 07:43:48 AM »
I don't add a feature in vArranger only because it is easy to do.
I also don't understand why a marker should cause any problems

Offline v.muller

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2019, 10:16:05 AM »
Hi bluebeat

Try the midi file convert into csv using this utility:

https://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/midicsv/

Then you could modify the csv using Notepad.
- remove lines containing the markers

Then convert modified csv back to midi.

This way you can help find, what marker causes the error.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2019, 11:02:39 AM »
Dan,  I believe you should do this,  because the way it is, does not work. It has events that are not supposed to be present in normal MIDI file. I do not see the reason why BIAB people have to find your errors. Does  not work like that in the world.

I do not understand why you are making this hard. All I need is working midi files from Varranger that does not have issues. The only way I see this is by taking away stuff that is not "required" and which creates problems away. A choice.

Some programmers are very engaged in fixing their software bugs/development. Some are only doing this part time, like you. I do not blame you, I just proposing the easiest solution for your situation that would resolve ALL problems, in any software related to the issue until you have time to figure this out.










Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2019, 12:26:09 PM »
All midifiles have many kind of events. A midifile player should only consider events that it can manage, and ignore the other ones

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2019, 02:55:50 PM »
Dan, exactly that!!
If a software can manage events such as markers, but those markers have problems... That program is not responsible for errors created in vArranger.
By reason, it does not have to "correct" mistakes made in other software (vArranger).

If mouth is made for drinking water, does not mean that if you drink water from the river the mouth will filter it and you will not get sick.

I am asking for similar, to have a choice / "sterilize" midi, so it does not have "extra" information and works well regardless of the software it is used in.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2019, 03:20:38 PM »
When you have found a mistake in the vArranger export, I did correct it, when I had enough information about the problem
I am happy when I correct a problem
When you said that another software does not like the taste of the vArranger's produced water, probably it should filter it according to its taste
I also need to understand well what is the problem before doing anything
I tend to follow the generic or standard or common sense in vArranger, more than adding tons of options to satisfy every possibilities

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2019, 03:33:09 PM »
Dan, I am not your enemy here.
I want vArranger to succeed.... and I always mention it to people that are interested in music arranging.
Having said that...

There can be many variations what can go wrong with markers (from different styles) and I do respect when you are trying to fix more complex issue, but what I am offering is a more universal approach, that is already in place. Just be able to export Midi without markers. Because if you fix this specific issue (markers), another thing might come up dealing with same problem related to markers, from different angle.



Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2019, 04:10:00 PM »
Yes but to the common sens view, markers in midifiles are a good feature and not a problem or a mistake or a bug???

It is very easy to delete them in any DAW, and when they are set, they really helps to have an indication on the position where we are actually in the song

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2019, 01:18:02 AM »
Hi Dan.
Still there is an active issue. ALL Midi files saved from vArranger do not sync right to BIAB tracks for some reason. Random files from the internet sync well.
Dan, Midi sync in issue was promised long time ago. Ok, I understand, it might be complicated. But this issue is simple to fix. BIAB is probably the best and the most prominent arranging/composition software. Why not make, so it works with vArranger like it should work with any other midi files?
 Again, if I had issues with other, non vArranger midi files in BIAB, I would contact them, but this is clearly vArranger issue.
Also, often, tempo of vArranger exported Midi files are not correct in other software. BIAB, Cakewalk, but that is minor issue compared to MIDI files not syncing right.

You have BIAB, you can try to see exactly what I am talking about.

Please let me know.

Thank you.

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2019, 08:20:56 AM »
As always, to be able to understand and reproduce your issue, you need to :
- Select one style
- Use the latest corrected version of vArranger that I sent you
- Export your song to midifile
- Send me the style and style2 file and midifile, so I can see if midi events are well like they should be

Then maybe we can understand why BIAB does not sync and if it is a style , BIAB or vArranger issue

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2019, 10:31:10 PM »
Dan, here is example of style (2 files ) and exported MIDI file from latest vArranger you sent me.

Again, this is related to any style exported from vArranger as MIDI. 
To recreate scenario, open BIAB do a "file open" (not import).  Open MIDI file from VA.  Right click on the style window, check "STYLE ENABLE" to enable real tracks. Choose real drums (for example) and try to play the whole thing.

It will not play correctly / in sync. Not this MIDI, not any MIDI exported from VA.  If to follow same process but opening a random MIDI song file found on internet, everything will be in sync.

P.S. Markers are not correct also. BUT, markers is the least important here. Not being in sync is driving me insane....Sure there are workarounds,  but given if I have to make a minor change the process becomes labor intensive and instead of making music, I am solving "ghost" bug.

Please let me know/ help !
Thank you.
 

Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2019, 10:55:26 PM »
What do you mean by Markers are not correct?
I don't have BIAB myself, so I can't try it for now
Do you have any idea why it does not work, can you send this midi.mid file to the BIAB author, and ask him why it is not in sync?

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2019, 08:50:55 PM »
Dan,
first, I am sorry for panicking! I thought I had serious deja vu moment. I remember you fixed it and it was working fine. I was migrating to new computer.... and what happened was the last version you sent was eaten by windows defender and I installed prior version, because it was in the same folder, but had "exclusion" for anti-virus.
I re-downloaded last version, everything worked! Now it is syncing and markers more or less are correct.

It would help if you fix the antivirus thing, so Windows does not delete VA install file overnight or if that is not possible, maybe put updated version number, so it is clear which version is installed: 1.9(x) or similar.


Offline Dan

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Re: Export song as midi. Starting point question.
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2019, 12:05:16 AM »
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