vArranger Forums

Can I try 64 bit vSynth as well?

Thanks. I didn't really care too much about styles - no adjustments to instruments or volume was made. And accompaniment in this demo uses only standard GM sounds. I used some styles from old Solton MS-100 and also some styles from Roland BK-7m. Next demo will be played by professional organist.

Hi All,

Some of you remember me - months ago I started aggressive topic on this forum. Anyway - here is my first attempt to run an organ with accompaniment powered by vArranger. Sorry for bad playing - I am not an organist and I am not a keyboard player first of all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxSYowDdCUk&list=UU9FBGpGDitXDzpWiBBDoqag&feature=c4-overview

Regards,
Bartosz.

Interesting answer.... I didn't write on this forum for the long time but I'm still watching.....and working on my project which involves Varranger.

Anyway, good point - as Varranger is driven by customers/users needs it's difficult to say who is suppose to be the the targeted customer of this product.
Is it designed for the beginner or home player? Don't think so - beginner will not spend fortune for: 1.laptop, SD2, Midi controller, Varranger in order to have something to play on. Home player? Don't think so either - he/she will buy new or second hand arranger which has loads of easy to use features such as songbook, music finder, one-touch setup.... no configuration required, no cables hanging around, no windows etc.....
Right, so only potential buyer would be professional musician with some computer interests and knowledge who wants to have fully configurable platform to fulfil his/her needs.
From the other side Varranger is very dependant on SD2 which comparing to current arrangers is not impressive and has loads of imperfections. I know that different sound expanders can be used with Varranger, however this would require hours of work in order to adjust instrumentation for the styles....and implementation of the MIDI might be a problem.
I like the idea of Varranger  - software which can play styles from Ketron, Yamaha and Roland and few functions which are not available in hardware arrangers, but I still can't see the big market for it.
Coming back to original question...

In my opinion Varranger should be available in two options - 1 - Basic. - Perfectly configured software to work only with SD2. Downaized in functions and configurations - perfect solution for home players who want cheap arranger. Cost - 50 EURO, limited software support

Option 2 - for professionals  - more or less like as it is now  , but configured for different sound modules - price unchanged. Full software support.

BTW - I can't find the link to download a new version of Varranger - Dan...can you send me a link?? I will send you a private mail about my project - maybe we can make something new based on Varranger

Regards,

Good Morning everyone!!

Well, well.... now it's really funny to read all your comments, it really is.... I had very long day yestarday and felt very tired when I woke up. But now some of your comments brought me back to my normal good spirit. Thank you...!!

DAN

Thank you very much for your reply - it seems to me like you are the only person who wants to talk about merits, technical problems and improvements. Thats great. And by the way on this forum you have an army of who will give their blood to deffend you and vArranger..... who knows - maybe one day I will apply for my membership, maybe I will join them. But you have brave soldiers here... that's for sure.
I hope we can work together and effectively implement organ features to vArranger - I have 25 different models of organs on stock now - I can find the best features from them, then you will find the way of implementation. My spare time is very limited - for the next week or so I will be very busy, but I still test the vArranger and I will prepare the list of question for you very soon....
Sorry for an agressive writing...I'm just a poor salesman....but I will Improve

NOW - For EVERONE/b] who follows this topic.

Questions:
Who is a PROFESIONAL user ? We sell around 10 instruments a week (pianos, organs, arrangers) and I have seen different proffesionals.
Here is what I have found on Wikpedia.org:
'A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and orchestrate them with uncommon skill. Traditional examples of professionals included doctors, lawyers, and clergy but is now more widely used to include estate agents, surveyors , environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators and many more. It is also used in sport to differentiate amateur players from those paid for their work. Hence professional footballer or professional golfer.
Simply - proffesional musican is the person who plays for money...
I have sold a proffesional arranger recently to the person who asked me a silly question: "How can I disable the keyboard (black and white part of the instrument)? I said: Why want you do that? He answered: I play on wedding parties....from the usb memory stick...
Can you believe it? He plays midi files pretending that it is a live performance...and people pay for it....
Just to make a long story shorter - I think that we all have this same rights to express our opinions and fact that some of you play professionaly doesn't give you the right to kick me out of this forum...

TO LIONEL - Thanks for your comments:

1.  In my first post I pointed out some imperfections regarding leslie/ drawbars / screen etc. So far we have 26 posts on this topic and solution and advice has not been found. (except switchng to VB3 vst which I dont want). I didn't even started asking for changes regarding organ players - I just expessed my opinion about features that would be helpful for organs i.e. 2 sets of drawbars, proper action of tremolo on/off button etc.

2. Yes I'm trying to find a suitable program for my project... what's wrong with it? You were looking for program that suits your needs and you found a vArranger - thats great.  Apparently most of the important features needed for organ players are already within vArranger. Modern organs are not much different from arrangers....

3. Features which I will want Dan to improve will not be only for organ players - I will post some ideas very soon - you will see the benefits for youself as well (I hope).

4. Yes it looks like a war... but I don't really know what we are fighting for? Yes we all can WIN WIN - but please talk about merits .....

TO DEAN.
Thanks for your comment. I agree with you opinion that setting up vArranger it's quick and easy. 10 years ago I bought aRoland VA7 - it was top of the range model, very nice sounds but it had almost nothing on the front panel. It was very difficult to play live. Current arrangers are much easier to set up and they have loads of features for live performing. But vArranger can still be improved by adopting the most practical features from hardware arrangers.

To LYLO.

Your English without google translator is good - dont't worry - English is not my first language - I'm Polish. Probably most of the people talking part in this conversation  are not english speakers as their first language...
You said: 'you make a bet when you buy vArranger, and it is not really a buy, it's rather a participation at the creation of the best arranger software present and futur. Well it's nice to spent some money on gambling, isn't it?? I hope you expess you personal opinion, not developer's one... I didn't find anything about  making bets...or supporting (donating) developement of this product when I bought it.... But don't worry I don't take it seriously...

TO FAZFAZ AND LYLO.

I understand the risk of piracy, but vArranger is not a cheap software. I now exactly the way the way vArranger is protected and is difficult to break this protection. But for the demo version there are different ways  - many companies make a special demo with limited functionality (like noise every 10 seconds, limited functions, disabled save option, 2 styles and 5 voices etc). Then after testing customer can buy full working vesion with hardware key protection.
I still believe that vArranger will suit my needs - maybe not a current version but it's close to what I need.

Regards,
Bartosz

Hi again,

Excellent post - I would like you to read this post from the beggining to the end once again and understand my point. At the the moment you read without understanding what I'm trying to express.

As I said vArranger is the best software arranger available on the market today (only 4 of 5 available in total) and I don't want to compare it with hardware arrangers. It has some features which are not available easy way in hardware - that's I decided to buy it for my project. As I said before - previus attempts to convert a hardware arrangers into organs were unsuccesful- doesn't matter which arranger was used.

I'm not going to give you a list of features which you will find in current hardware arrangers (non existing in vArranger) because my original topic would turn into discussion about arrangers in general.

My comparison Yamaha vs Dan was only to show you how difficult is to make a product which will satisfy every customer and how difficult is to provide the customer service when we talk about thousands of of product being sold... It's not easy isn't it???

I just want a product which works as it should without technical problems - that what I want.

I bought the product fo 350 EURO without english manual, without demo version available (I don't understand why demo is not available???), on the original vArranger website (english version) there is nothing about this software except youtube demos and gallery. All the knowledge about this product was from this disscusion forum.... Buying process took 3 days, program was recognized by my antivirus as potentialy dangerous - finally I had to change my antivirus. Now I have technical issues with tremolo/leslie, drawbars and when I pointed it out then people advice me to switch to vst B3 organ..... great start.

Anyway I will stick with vArranger for a bid longer to see where it goes.

And please refrain from making any further comparisons of vArranger to any hardware arrangers. I don't want to be involved in this, neither I want to diconstruct you believe in vArranger and its developer Dan.
Dan is doing excellent job and fingers cross one day he will bring it to the final stage.

Best regards,
Bartosz.

Hello,

Thanks for all your comments.
It looks to me like our conversation is now going in incorrect direction. Maybe because I started it with a bid offensive topic......

I'm not going to compare vArranger with hardware arrangers  - I didn't buy it to replace my current arranger, my plan was (and still is) to buid a home organ. vArranger has maybe only 20% features of the current models arrangers - so in my opinion it wouldn't survive that kind of comparison. One of my good customers who is a proffesional musican spent 4 hours with vArranger recently.... and only good think he said is ability to change instruments on all channels + INS function. He pointed out lack of many impotant functions which every arranger had good 10 years ago and have now, he critized lack of the logical core of the interface. In his opinion vArranger is a good idea but it looks like the developement of this product is going in few different directions driven by customer's needs, but at the moment none of these function has been fully completed.
In my first post I pointed some imperfections of the organ (drawbar) function - so far problems havent been sorted out and many of users say - go for VB3. My question is why should I do this??? When I buy a car and 3rd gear dosn't work then I would go to the service to get if fix.... Should I forget about the service and use 2nd and 4th gear instead?
I believe in Dan however I didn't personally exercise his help it terms of my needs....we will see. I know as good as you do how difficult the customer service may be when you deal with companies such as Yamaha, Roland, etc - we order parts from them and sometimes we need their help....and in many cases this is the real nightmare. But from the other side let me give you a little example - one of my main suplliers which is one of the biggest yamaha dealers in UK had sold 200 Tyros4 within first 3 weeks after the product became available and they could have sold more if the Tyros 4 was available from Yamaha.That means that Yamaha sells thousands of instruments all over the world every month.... I want to see Dan's customer service when he hes 100.000 copies of vArranger being sold.....
I'm still testing vArranger in my spare time and new looooong list of problems will be available soon...
And one little insert for those of you who want to compare vArranger+SD2 with any other instrument - SD2 is a very limited box, which has 64 voices of polyphony and 384 voices. I dont think that the future of vArranger will be based on SD2 only....

Best regards,
Bartosz

Hi Jon,

Yes, I have seen these websites - thanks anyway. Well you didn't get my idea quite well...
I'm not going to build another hammond clone based on whatever. Idea is to buid an organ like... Roland Atelier, Technics SX-GA3, or even Hammond, but for example XE-200. As I said - at the very beginning I will try not to include any vst plug-ins into this project. I want to buid an instrument classified as 'Home organ" - funny like a keyboard /arranger with styles rhythms auto acompaniaments etc, but with theatre, jazz, drawbar organ sounds. It has to be 2 manual / 13-20 pedal board instrument.
Look - my friend Chris plays one of the organs which I have for sale in my warehouse - look at to the drawbars and switches when he plays - then you understand my issue. And by the way - this organ is Hammond - but - home hammond - with rhythms, styles etc...and of course it can play puiano, strings and others....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2w5q8NrmPo

I don't know about you - but I'm going to bed.

Regards,
Bartosz

Hi Jon,

I included the cost because of two reasons:

1. You said that vArranger is cheaper option than hardware arranger - but it doesn't work without a laptop does it? So, for someone considering purchase it has to be included. Secondly there is still a lot of people who use desktop computers - not a great idea to carry desktop for a gig.... I suppose.

2. Even taking into account the fact that every musican has a laptop - I would rather not let my wife go online with it night before a gig....viruses etc... I would preffer dedicated machine jst for music.

SD2 is not an organ expander - I know - such a think doesn't exist these days. But there is no difference between organ and a keyboard from sound/ rhythm / styles etc poin of view. Organ and keyboards use this same samples, styles, rhythms etc... Only difference is the way which all components are linked together and user interface. In fact SD2 is the only product within this price range. There is a Roland VK-8M organ module - but it hasn't got anything inside but organs. VK-7m by roland - more than twice as expensive as SD2, and Roland SD50 - looks interesting and costs as little as SD2 - but vArranger was designed to work with SD2....

Anyway I'm just trying to build a base for organ project - whether or not it will be succesful idea - we will see.

Regards,
Bartosz

Hi Dan,
Thanks for your quick reply.

I tried this - in fact having SD2 connected directly to Roland AT80SL I mangaged to get piano sound on upper/ lower /pedals - but was unable to change it - simply piano and no control over the SD2 - AT80SL has only few options in MIDI menu - channel selection -thats all . But I dont give up that easy... Next I connected SD2 to Technics SX-GA3 - good 15 years old but still one of the best home organ ever made. It has very interesting midi section menu - I managed to get almost all functions from SD2 controlled from organ panel - start/stop/ intro etc, rhytmn change, tempo, instrument change.... seems like SD2 is more or less compatible with Technics. I didn't managed to get drawbars to work... never mind.

Now let's get back to vArranger and drawbars. I have seen few posts regarding this problem on different website (synthzone.com) and looks like it must be some problem with midi implementation of this function.
Midi implementation for sD2 (page 42) says:CONTROL 1EH Rotor cc=00H off, cc=40H slow, cc=7FH fast. In my situation vArranger changes from fast to slow and from slow to fast when the chord is being hold. Doesn't change from rotary to off. (slow-->>off, Fast-->>off, off-->>slow, off-->>fast). Its strange.... but now I have 2 ideas  (I'm not a MIDI guru but it might work) What about changing  tremolo speed from cc=01H to cc=40H?? Instead of cc=00H use cc=01H. Its a very slow rotor speed - almost off...
Secondly I looked at Technics SX-GA3 which is 15 years old and still a good seller - it hasn't got rotary off function - when you switch tonewheel function you have two options: tremolo slow or tremolo fast....

It seems to me like the problem with tremolo doesn't only apply to drawbar sounds... there is a big selection of organ sounds in SD2. Whichever organd sound I play (Organ Voices) problem mentioned above always applies. On top of it some voices are Multi channel - then my question - how can I change tremolo effect on few channels with one button??

Coming back to your reply... I thing that screen for drawbars is important - vArranger can be operated without external midi controller i.e. touch screen - If I only use touchscreen how can I see the position of drawbars....and how will I change drawbars??

Dan, don't get me wrong - I still thing that vArranger is a good direction and I understand that there are the limits. I don't need drawbars for right1, right2 etc.... I just need 2 sets of drawbars like any drawbar organs - hammond for example. 1 set of drawbars for upper manual, one set of drawbars for lower.... it should be 2 drawbars for bass pedal - but I know - it's not possible.

I was thinking about vst implementation into vArranger, especially VB3 or something similar. As I said before - I'm very enthustiastic about vst in general, but very sceptic from the sales point of view. Implementation of vst into vArranger is a great idea for advanced users, but most of my customers buying organs are people 60-70-80 years old - therefore big number of them are not very computer orientated. To be able to use vst plug-ins in vArranger you need to implement vst host into the concept. If you have a vst host, then we have 2 problems: 1. people can instal any vst-plug-ins which means loads of problems for you, 2. vst plug-ins rely on procesor speed and memory - then you have a problem of minimum system requirements. At the moment vArranger should work (in my opinion) on Pentium3 with 512MB Ram provided that it has clean, fresh Windows XP installation. VB3 will still work on this configuration, but other vst certainly not.

OK, long post again - I'm going back to vArranger Now I'm trying to explore INS function (remember I have a beauty on board - SW1000XG).

Regards,
Bartosz

Hi again,

Thanks for all your comments,

Let's make it clear  - I have no intention of comparing a vArranger with the real hardware, I just want the brain part to buid and organ.

jan1kow - thanks for your comment. I will not compare vArranger with hardware arrangers however I dont think that vArranger is a cheap option. To start with vArranger you need: software (300GBP), SD2 (300GBP), laptop/netbook - 200GBP, master controller (from 100GBP up). Therefore you spend at least 900GBP. For that ammount of money you won't buy any good new product, but on the second hand market selection will be huge: Tyros2, Korg Pa1x, Pa1xPro, Pa800, Roland G70, Roland E80, PSR-S700/710/900/910.
I just sold 18 months old audya for 2200 GBP, just to give you some ideas.... well for 4k GBP I know what to buy... 
My original question was deliberately a bid offensive - mainly because I was seriously dissapointed when I started testing organ features of vArranger, now looks like I put the spanner in the works.... and this will stimulate developement of this product.

Let's get back to the merits....

Dan - thanks for your reply - tomorrow I will do some tests with SD2 - I will contect it directly (without vArranger) to different organ/keyboards to see what is happening wit tremolo / leslie. It sound really strange - this function was availabe in every organ 30 years ago, every decent arranger which I'm thinking of has it as well....anyway I will check it tomorrow.

I'm 100% sure that additional buttons are needed to control organ functions. I think that special windows (like lirycs) dedicated for organ drawbars would be a good idel - If SD2 drawbars are not any good, then this window could be used for vst (I like idea of vst - however for this specific project I would preffer to have a 'hardware' sound coming directly from SD2/ sound card).

Two independent drawbar controllers for lef/right hand are essential - at the moment left/right parts sound different until any drawbar is moved. For example putting Drawbar3 on let and Drawbar7 on right is fine until any drawbar is moved. When moved then drawbars start to control left/right at this same time resulting in having this same sound for left/right side. Option which you mentioned - like displaying one set of drawbars which are currently controlling selected channel is not good for me.... what about when I have to change drawbar setting for lower and upper manual at the same time?

I have seen VB3 - and seems to be a very good virtual hammond - however for this particular project I'm not sure if this is a great idea.

Regards,
Bartosz

Hi Deane,

Thanks for your comment. Only reason which tempted me to buy vArranger is its unique function of assigning 3 instruments to left and 5 to right hand. Thats what I need to build a home organ....
I know all range of Tyros - we sell all of them - unfortunatelly I'm not a great fan of Yamaha arrangers and all historical attempts to convert Tyros (1,2,3 ) into an organ were unsuccesfull. I would refrain from comparing vArranger2 with Tyros4 - all you can compare is the user interface of Tyros4 vs vArranger- all the rest depends on your hardware.
In my first post I was trying to point some imperfetions of vArranger - but seems like I purchased different version than yours ie. yours hasn't developed above problems...as I can't see any technical suggestions in your post regarding my findings.
At this stage of the game I have my project ( in my mind ) but I'm not going to invest thousands of Euro in to this idea before all the main componetns work as they should. Simply saying - I bought a vArranger and I'm just checking what is in the box. I'm positive that Dan will improve it before we can start talking about customisation for the home organ...

Best regards,
Bartosz.

Hi, this is my first post on this forum - probably not the last... 

Let me introduce myself - my name is Bartosz and I'm runnung a busines in UK selling second hand keyboards, arrangers, pianos and for the last 2 years organs as well. So i must admit that I probably saw most of the models which were on the production lines within the last 20 years (yes - we still sell 20-25 years electronic organs) I probably know more or less about their features, functions etc....
I bought a vArranger few days ago with an idea of building a 2 manual organ with 13/20 notes pedal board based on vArranger and SD2. All contept would include customised midi surface with all buttons, switches and LEDs required. If succesfull - then the prototype would turn into commercial product....but seems to me like a vArranger2 is still on the very baby stage.

I must admit that vArranger is the best software arranger available on the market - as a software only product. I have tested all others and they won't be considered for my project.

Now few info about my configuration (testing equipment)- stand alone PC Pentium4 dual core desktop, Yamaha SW1000XG PCI card, Ketron SD2, cheap yamaha PSR1700 as midi keyboard.
Because I'm going to build an organ, I started my tests from organ sounds and drawbars. There is no disscusion about the sound because it comes from SD2, but all the user interface and setup regarding drawbars, tremolo (leslie) and its funcionality is just a dissaster.
Few examples:
1.set up any drawbar preset for the right voice 1, play the chord and keep holding, then on the screen switch the tromolo fast on.....nothing happens. To get it to work I have to release the chord and play it again. When the tremolo is on it goes easy from fast to slow and from slow to fast - but again when the chord is being played I can only switch it between slow / fast, on and off only when the chord is released. This same story with dist / delay / chorus.
2. I tottaly disagree with the idea of having tremolo assignated to the modulation wheel... what about if I want to have 2nd right voice set up for saxofon and then modulate the saxofon having full control over leslie fast / slow / on /off ?? I think that it should be separated buttons for tremolo fast, slow, percusion, on/of and dist chorus. Thats the way people play tonewheel organs....
3. What I have found on SD2 manual: 'The drawbars can play on any midi channel (and also on a number of channels simultaneously). In my example having different drawbar setups for the left and right voices I can only control one set of drawbars - basically sounds OK when is first set, but then moving drawbars I change sound for both sides... looks like both sides are on this same MIDI channel. Again, thats not way the organ works.
4.Position on drawbars on the screen - covers sliders for the left hand side - what about switching off one part of an accompaniement when playing drawbars? And where is the second drawbar set for left voice (lower manual keyboard)?
5. Now have a look at the attached screen - what is goiing on with drawbars??? How did I do that?? Simply double click below 'my songs' and above sliders (black space between), and double click again....

OK, Thanks for reading my first post - I'm coming back to vArranger to explore more interesting functions.... a bid difficult with French manual. Thanks God my wife speaks French.

Any comments will be highly appreciated,
Regards,
Bartosz