Saving a midi file

[stewbow]

I produce a Song in Song Chords and export to midi file, the varranger is set to SD2

I then load the same midi file into Sonar X1 with the output set to play the SD2 and it doesn't handle the drum tracks 9 & 10

I'm thinking that surely there must be a Sysex command created when we make the midi file, and that when we play it elsewhere, that Sysex command will set up the SD2.

I'm used to the GS midi set up, is Ketron completely different, or am I doing something wrong?

Stuart

[Dan]

Your midifile is from a Ketron style or Yamaha style?

[stewbow]

Ketron style, I did it a few times with different styles (all Ketron) and I think it worked properly just once.

Do I have to save the song 1st before exporting the midi, I think I just exported it a few times without saving, I wonder if that is the issue?

Stuart

[Dan]

Can you post the midifile?

[stewbow]

it will be tomorow

stuart

[stewbow]

sorry, had a leak in the bathroom today, I will post the midi file as soon as possible, tomorow maybe!!

Stuart

[stewbow]

Dan
Just a quick midi file example of the drum track issue.
The style is Street from the SD5 Pop folder, saved on Varranger.
It loads into varranger and plays ok, but when I load it into Sonar X1 we have a problem

Stuart

[Dan]

Maybe Sonar X1 is not reseting thing correctly.
I suggest you to reboot your SD2, and the load the midifile in Sonar.
Is it better?

[pax_eterna]

Dan, would you like me to have a look? I use Sonar as well...

Dennis

[Dan]

Yes if you want, I tried it with vArranger and VanBasco and it's working OK with my SD4

[pax_eterna]

I just re-read the OP - I think I know where he is going wrong without even looking at the midi...

@OP - go to EDIT-Preferences-MIDI-Instruments and make sure Channel 9 is "linked" to the Ketron Drums ins - as shown below. I use Kronos which like most modern synths can have drums on any channel, in the old days it was ONLY channel 10 and in the case of Ketron channel 10 and channel 9 (mostly for all the percussion).

In your case, I suspect you have channel 9 mapped as a "normal" melody part, in which case Sonar is correctly saving bank and patch data in that manner. Try this reset of your Sonar devices, and let us know how you go.
I will still have a look at the file though, just in case. I still have the Ketron SD2 ins file here so I will load it up and check...

Dennis

[stewbow]

Dennis
so I have to download the .ins file and install it in Sonar?

Stuart

[pax_eterna]

Oh by the way I should have said you will see channel 9 linked to Roland drums - I used that only as an example.

Stuart if you want to edit Ketron parts, you MUST use a Ketron INS, same goes for all synths once you move out of GM

Here is the Ketron INS, although I think it is also elsewhere on the forum. When you go back to Sonar and the define section (you can see this tab in the pic) then click on import and select this INS file attached..when open make sure you select both Ketron and Ketron drums, once imported then "link" all your midi channels 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc, but make 9 and 10 point to drums.

After that when you open a midi in Sonar and select banks and patches all the Ketron factory banks and patches are available. Also bear in mind that Ketron (along with most other arranger engines - re-assign patches at every variation change, so don't be surprised if after an edit of a style file, you play it and jump to say variation 3, all the patches go back to original. So you must also remove ALL patch changes on ALL tracks in the midi for the initial edits done on Sonar track manager to "stick" for the whole style. Unless of course you have a specific reason for wanting a different patch for a certain section, in whihc case you need to embed the change in the track, but don't forget to also embed the change back to the original one you want...

[Dan]

First of all, SOLO each track in sonar, and tell us witch one is sounding bad.

[pax_eterna]

Dan did you notice there is NO patch change data in that midi at all, there are also no style "part markers" so it looks like SW has done it's usual job of stuffing up a style file ...by the way, does the Ketron INS load by default in vA? If not then that could be part of the issue as well...the rest "sounds okay" as the other tracks are all essentially GM even with no mapping..

D

[Dan]

There is Program change in that midifile.

[pax_eterna]

Not in the one I am looking at? Let me check.....just double checked with another more in depth midi app...yeah some there...but Ooh Choir on channel 9  I wonder how a shaker sounds via ooh choir!!

The only thing I would add is that  the INS file has no data for Alternate mode on the SD2, which (and Dan you can correct this) is where most of the percussion data is accessed as I recall  (and this could be wrong as it is my memory here) ?

[Dan]

You have to understand something about MIDI.

You can ask to a synth to select a sound via MIDI.  You don't say to the synth "PLAY ME THE CHOIR SOUND", but "PLAY THE SOUND n°32 in your MEMORY"

In the end of manuals of every synth, there is tables where they detail the number of every sound.

Because it's hard for humans to select a sound by it's number, Sonar, as vArranger and other softwares use some tables to display a sound "CHOIR" and send the correct message "32" to the synth.

So if you see Choir on channel 9, it's just a problem of the display table (INS), and will not change the sound.
The bank0 is 4, so the live drum is well selected on the midifile.

[pax_eterna]

errr yes Dan, I am WELL aware of that fact thanks   I have been editing with midi sinc 1989!!!   I was making a joke

[Dan]

I know that you know this ! But this information can be interesting for other...

By the way, in the SD2, the drumkits can be on channel 10 only.

Live drums are not drumkits, and considered as other instruments, and you can select them for any instruments channels (1, 9, 11, 13...)

If you want to select a drumkit (Standard, Rock, brush...) on another channel than 10, you have to send a special sysex for example (TRACK 9 = DRUMS)
This is useful for Yamaha styles.

[pax_eterna]

Agreed.

But it seems to me after playing around with Ketron styles that it is mostly percussion parts that channel 9 uses, with the core drum kits only on channel 10. I have experimented by assigning percussion kits to channel 9 in some testing and for a lot of styles it plays quite nicely but for the most part when playing Ketron data on non Ketron sound generators I always mute out the channel 9/Live drum loops, and the styles, for me, sound fine.

Thanks to you r excellent ongoing programming, vA is now so good at reproducing Roland and Yamaha styles, the whole Ketron style issue is moot for me I have always preferred Roland style programming, but until you started improving support for same, I put up with simply amending the Ketron styles thus.

Fact is with vA as it stands now, all styles apart from Ketron need some amount of external editing to remove unwanted patch changes embedded in the styles, adjust velocities where necessary and even adjust octave settings for bass patches, for some synth engines - unless one of course is using an SD2/4 as the sound engine in which case you have done most of the "donkey-work" for people  ...in that the Roland/Yamaha styles are auto mapped to the SD2 hardware.

I personally find the SD2 VERY narrow in soundscape and quite thin in the sounds - with a noted lack of audio clarity, not to mention rather noisy output stages...just my view and I know others have a different one

It is why I have been experimenting, as you know, with a VSTi soultion, and or alternative hardware synths...latest is the Kronos. I have tried and discarded both the SD2 and SD4

What I was suggesting is that the OP set channel 9 to be a drum part in Sonar. Then proceed with his editing.

..an INS file covering all the special kits can easily be created, even though Ketron themselves do NOT provide one..There are far more percussion options on the SD2 than is represented by the Ketron factory INS file, which only has the standard SD2/4 drumkits mapped. Again I have no idea why Ketron have not done this.

Looking at the channel 9 part, it looks suspiciously like a percussion track to me and as such Sonar needs to know it is a Drum part to correctly interpret those notes as percussion instruments NOT melody notes..again ONLY as we are dealing with a Ketron product which still programs all drums so they must be on channel 10!! On the Kronos for example I can assign drums to any channel  - it is the synth engine that recognises it is a drum part....

Dan, sorry m8, I am not trying to be argumentative at all...just trying to assist in helping out the OP as I do know Sonar midi operations

D

[Dan]

And I am now working to improve the Roland style engine with the BK-7M styles set, so it will sound better out of the box with SD2 or other sound modules.
The styles are in the download section

[pax_eterna]

   can't wait for the Playlist function though ..............................hint hint!!

D

[stewbow]

Dennis
I too have 25 years experience with midi, going back my Atari ST,
Channel 9 on the sd2 is not a drum track, and simply muting it significantly reduces the effect of the track.
The issue is this, a midi file made for the SD2 will play perfectly on varranger and van bascos no problem, but it confuses the hell out of Sonar X1.
Listening to the track the track in Sonar reminds be of a Chinese orchestra,

This is what happens, while sonar is playing the midi file in Chinese mode, if I select the same file in varranger ( only select, nothing else) straight away, the midi file that Sonar is playing changes to bring perfect.

So logically thinking, Sonar must send a sysex or something, but I can't find where to switch it off



Stuart

[Dan]

Try redefining manually the sound of track 9. try changing the bank select mode between 0,1,etc...

[4partmusic]

Stewbow,

Not sure if you ever got your question answered or not but yes you would have to import the ins file in Sonar X1.  I am not at home right now so I cannot remember the exact menu items to go to but Sonar requires you import the .ins and map the ins to the various channels.  I think that you can probably find that in the Sonar help menu under instrument mapping or something like that. It has a complete interface to allow you to do this.

Thanks,

Terry

[pax_eterna]

Dennis
I too have 25 years experience with midi, going back my Atari ST,
Channel 9 on the sd2 is not a drum track, and simply muting it significantly reduces the effect of the track.
The issue is this, a midi file made for the SD2 will play perfectly on varranger and van bascos no problem, but it confuses the hell out of Sonar X1.
Listening to the track the track in Sonar reminds be of a Chinese orchestra,

This is what happens, while sonar is playing the midi file in Chinese mode, if I select the same file in varranger ( only select, nothing else) straight away, the midi file that Sonar is playing changes to bring perfect.

So logically thinking, Sonar must send a sysex or something, but I can't find where to switch it off



Stuart

Nope no sysex at all - where did you get that from???

Seems you have not yet got the concept of what a drum part is...they are different to all other parts in that each individual key is mapped to a DIFFERENT sound, unlike a melody track which assigns all 127 notes to ONE sound patch (unless split of course)...

As for the other parts, you are getting "Chinese" as you put it, because you do not have the Ketron SD2 INS selected...Just load it in select it, close Sonar re-open and THEN load your style file...I think you will find it plays perfectly!!

I know this as I have edited hundreds of midi files for the SD2.SD4 and Miday..

To expand a bit, Sonar is seeing track 9 as a melody track, NOT a drum/percussion part, whereas the SD2 DOES see it as a drum/percussion track as that is the way Ketron program all their arrangers and modules, to automatically map channel as the "2nd" drum track....

Sonar is doing NOTHING wrong and is doing EXACTLY what the MIDI spec calls for....and the patch changes for the SD2 are already embedded in the header chunk (not visible to any NORMAL sequencer) these ar Ketron patch changes for the channels used playing a Ketron sound module.

By opening the file in Sonar and then not editing the channel 9 to be a drum/percussion part, Sonar is quite correctly re-saving it as a normal melody track...So if you WANT to edit in Sonar the solution I have already given to you.

If you want to change all the other sounds too simply use the ins file. I would leave channel 9 assigned to a drum part and not worry about inserting any patch changes on that track. That way the patch already saved in the style will get saved.

But look you do what you want.. I have given you the answer and the solution, but you know better so have at it I am done with this now.

[pax_eterna]

Stewbow,

Not sure if you ever got your question answered or not but yes you would have to import the ins file in Sonar X1.  I am not at home right now so I cannot remember the exact menu items to go to but Sonar requires you import the .ins and map the ins to the various channels.  I think that you can probably find that in the Sonar help menu under instrument mapping or something like that. It has a complete interface to allow you to do this.

Thanks,

Terry

Terry if you read my post above you would see I already gave those instructions with a picture

[stewbow]

Dennis
Like you, I have understood the concept of channel 10 drums since the 80's, but as I said before, channel 9 isn't a 127 instrument drum track.
I took your advice and loaded the .ins, thankyou ,
I have had a little success this evening, but I'm not quite sure where it's come from.
Channel 9 is mapped to a sd2 (not a drum track) and sometimes works 1st time, always works if I save the file as a cakewalk file and reload.

It's quite funny really, I've just discarded all my VSTi's in favour of the SD2, couldn't see the point in waiting 60 seconds for a Vienna Concert Grand Piano to load in and then another 5 minutes to save the song, when in the mix you can't tell the difference between that and a Sound Canvas, but that's just my opinion

Stuart

[pax_eterna]

You really have missed it...no offence but you don't understand it...it is not a drum track PER SE it is just an ordinary sequencer track -  what it means is the notes written for that part are meant to go to a drum instrument. Now, with the Ketron mapping, and the antiquated midi spec they use, their .ins NEEDS a separate drum version, so that Sonar sends the channel data accordingly. Most other modern synths have adopted the no restriction to channel operation of drum parts, so the drum instrument (or drum kit if you like) is in among all the other patches and is treated no differently, therefore the .ins file for most other gear is just one large file with everything in it.

You actually do NOT have to somehow magically turn channel 9 into anything in Sonar, simply point channel 9 to be linked to the Ketron Drum .ins file you imported along with channel 10. As I explained early on. That is it.

The only thing, which I pointed out, was that Ketron, in their wisdom decided to NOT create any sort of Sonar .ins data for all of the percussion instrument kits that are on the SD2/4..so you can select them via the track inspector views, but only by number...

Does that make it clearer?

[stewbow]

Dennis
you are correct, I've only just taken delivery of the SD2 and had become a little frustrated that it didn't work identically to a Modern Day Roland Sound Canvas (ahh the memories)
Midi is something I "mastered" about 20 years ago and discarded at about the same time, now I've just started experimenting again and as you point out, things have moved on

Amazing really though, how a 25 years old file will still work as well, or even better in some cases on a current peace of hardware,  there can't be many things that have stood the test of time as well as the old midi file

thanks for your input, all took on board

Stuart

[pax_eterna]

NP Stuart.

At the moment I am re-programming 4 banks of the Kronos ( it has many MANY banks of patch data I am only "robbing" the GM banks to replace) with the 4 banks of sounds from the SD2 ( I have them in sf2 format samples) so that when using vA with the Kronos and I want to use Ketron styles there should be no difference in sound to using the SD2 itself. Then a simple re-write of the .ins to reflect that and off we go . Then again I might just simply re-edit the Ketron styles to revoice to Kronos. Not sure which way I will go a this stage. But I like to have all bases covered.

Anyhoo, good luck with it all...seems you are re-discovering exactly how powerful MIDI really is. Too many folks dismiss it as simply a method to "jukebox" songs, but it is way more than that And with the discussions re MIDI 3 getting past the "white paper" stage, it is looking pretty damn good for the future...

Dennis