Are you really happy with this product???

[Bartosz]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum - probably not the last... 

Let me introduce myself - my name is Bartosz and I'm runnung a busines in UK selling second hand keyboards, arrangers, pianos and for the last 2 years organs as well. So i must admit that I probably saw most of the models which were on the production lines within the last 20 years (yes - we still sell 20-25 years electronic organs) I probably know more or less about their features, functions etc....
I bought a vArranger few days ago with an idea of building a 2 manual organ with 13/20 notes pedal board based on vArranger and SD2. All contept would include customised midi surface with all buttons, switches and LEDs required. If succesfull - then the prototype would turn into commercial product....but seems to me like a vArranger2 is still on the very baby stage.

I must admit that vArranger is the best software arranger available on the market - as a software only product. I have tested all others and they won't be considered for my project.

Now few info about my configuration (testing equipment)- stand alone PC Pentium4 dual core desktop, Yamaha SW1000XG PCI card, Ketron SD2, cheap yamaha PSR1700 as midi keyboard.
Because I'm going to build an organ, I started my tests from organ sounds and drawbars. There is no disscusion about the sound because it comes from SD2, but all the user interface and setup regarding drawbars, tremolo (leslie) and its funcionality is just a dissaster.
Few examples:
1.set up any drawbar preset for the right voice 1, play the chord and keep holding, then on the screen switch the tromolo fast on.....nothing happens. To get it to work I have to release the chord and play it again. When the tremolo is on it goes easy from fast to slow and from slow to fast - but again when the chord is being played I can only switch it between slow / fast, on and off only when the chord is released. This same story with dist / delay / chorus.
2. I tottaly disagree with the idea of having tremolo assignated to the modulation wheel... what about if I want to have 2nd right voice set up for saxofon and then modulate the saxofon having full control over leslie fast / slow / on /off ?? I think that it should be separated buttons for tremolo fast, slow, percusion, on/of and dist chorus. Thats the way people play tonewheel organs....
3. What I have found on SD2 manual: 'The drawbars can play on any midi channel (and also on a number of channels simultaneously). In my example having different drawbar setups for the left and right voices I can only control one set of drawbars - basically sounds OK when is first set, but then moving drawbars I change sound for both sides... looks like both sides are on this same MIDI channel. Again, thats not way the organ works.
4.Position on drawbars on the screen - covers sliders for the left hand side - what about switching off one part of an accompaniement when playing drawbars? And where is the second drawbar set for left voice (lower manual keyboard)?
5. Now have a look at the attached screen - what is goiing on with drawbars??? How did I do that?? Simply double click below 'my songs' and above sliders (black space between), and double click again....

OK, Thanks for reading my first post - I'm coming back to vArranger to explore more interesting functions.... a bid difficult with French manual. Thanks God my wife speaks French.

Any comments will be highly appreciated,
Regards,
Bartosz

[Deane]

Bartosz,
Yes, I am very satisfied with vArranger.  I use the product strictly for the intended purpose - as an arranger being controlled with a Roland A-800 Pro controller.  I also own a Yamaha Tyros 4 which allows me to make some really accurate side-by-side comparisons. 

May I suggest you put your wish list in an email to Dan.  He is outstanding at supplying user support and attempting to add features his customers can use.  Dan is the only person working on this product and spends a lot of time "improving" it.  I am always impressed how quickly he gets things done. 

Anyway, let Dan know what you are trying to do and what vArranger does not do now that keeps you from accomplishing your goal - I bet if it is possible to do Dan will help you with
the problem.

Deane

[Bartosz]

Hi Deane,

Thanks for your comment. Only reason which tempted me to buy vArranger is its unique function of assigning 3 instruments to left and 5 to right hand. Thats what I need to build a home organ....
I know all range of Tyros - we sell all of them - unfortunatelly I'm not a great fan of Yamaha arrangers and all historical attempts to convert Tyros (1,2,3 ) into an organ were unsuccesfull. I would refrain from comparing vArranger2 with Tyros4 - all you can compare is the user interface of Tyros4 vs vArranger- all the rest depends on your hardware.
In my first post I was trying to point some imperfetions of vArranger - but seems like I purchased different version than yours ie. yours hasn't developed above problems...as I can't see any technical suggestions in your post regarding my findings.
At this stage of the game I have my project ( in my mind ) but I'm not going to invest thousands of Euro in to this idea before all the main componetns work as they should. Simply saying - I bought a vArranger and I'm just checking what is in the box. I'm positive that Dan will improve it before we can start talking about customisation for the home organ...

Best regards,
Bartosz.

[Dan]

Hi Bartosz, thanks for posting and you are very welcome in our forum, regarding your long time experience with musical instruments.

Thanks for saying that 'vArranger is the best software arranger available on the market'

About your questions :

1) This problem really depends on the Ketron SD2 who doesn't change the FX on notes currently sounding, but only on new played notes. It's not a vArranger problem, but more a SD2 way of working.  Changing between Leslie SLOW and FAST is still on the same FX. We can't do anything for that.

2) Look at this post talking about this feature http://www.varranger.fr/vforum/index.php?topic=42.msg261#msg261
I understand your problem, so if there is not only Organ sounds layered, we have 2 choices. Or removing the Modulation/Leslie feature, or not sending modulation to the Sax sound. Maybe adding more Organ buttons will be OK too.

3) I wrote this part of the software long time ago (2 years). I just read my code again, and it seems that the drawbars are attached to the latest channel with sound selected. So if you select the LEFT 3 and select a drawbar preset, then do anything else, the drawbars will work for the Left 3 channel. Maybe I can change that for : The drawbars will work on the selected channel, or other ideas...

4) The Mute button is still available when the drawbars are visible ! I agree that this position is not the best. maybe a movable window would be better.
There is only one set of drawbars for now. Maybe I will add that the displayed drawbars will change the channel currently selected.

5) Ha Ha, you are right. Double clicking is changing from full screen, to normal screen. This cause a display bug on the drawbars. I have to correct this bug.

I personally think that the best to do, is to select the best VSTi organ emulation, then I will develop a good link between vArranger and this VSTi.

Think about the best layout for your organ project, and submit me what you need for that project. I will try to add it to the vArranger.

I know that there are many organ players who bought vArranger. Your comments are welcome too.

[Lionel]

Hi Bartosz,

Subject heading "Are you really happy with this product? "

Answer: Yes, I am, why, because it does what I want it to do, because the developer added features I requested

WHY: Because he listens to his customers.

If an issue is found the solution is implemented.
When you find an issue it is because you are using it in a way that somebody has not.

As you have read the developer has offered an explanation and offered some solutions and willing to change to suit.

THAT IS WHY I AM HAPPY WITH vARRANGER BECAUSE OF CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!
AND IT DOES WHAT I AM REQUIRING!!!!

Having said that you have a clear answer not because of any other reason except I love my vArranger..
for live playing..

Regards
Lionel

[jan1kow]

I also love vArranger and also the developer has added 5-6 features that I needed for my personal purposes and set up.
This software along with my SD2 was better and cheaper that any other heavy clumsy alternative bu £4000 GPB.
Also this way I never need to worry about vAranger being out of date and superceeded by the latest model as it is always updated with new features as needed.
Also other new products (keyboards/modules) etc. released have too many bugs and problems due to the manufacturers not doing proper testing before launching so they are a taking money under false pretences.

jon
UK

[Bernie9]

Welcome Bartosz

Though I am not a technician, to be sure, I have organ roots as a keyboard player.  I too have asked Dan to find ways to fit my style of playing and he has always been right there.  I use the SD2 with vArranger and find it well suited to my needs for the most part.  However, as far as organ is conscerned, wheras the SD2 sounds are acceptable, my VB3 VSTi is far superior.

Dan

I found it interesting about your comment of establishing a better connection to VST instruments.  Did that pertain only to Bartosz project, or perhaps to the VB3 as well ?

Bernie

[Dan]

It seems that Bartosz also want to use VB3. Maybe we will do a special link for that software, if the developper of VB3 is ok.

[Bartosz]

Hi again,

Thanks for all your comments,

Let's make it clear  - I have no intention of comparing a vArranger with the real hardware, I just want the brain part to buid and organ.

jan1kow - thanks for your comment. I will not compare vArranger with hardware arrangers however I dont think that vArranger is a cheap option. To start with vArranger you need: software (300GBP), SD2 (300GBP), laptop/netbook - 200GBP, master controller (from 100GBP up). Therefore you spend at least 900GBP. For that ammount of money you won't buy any good new product, but on the second hand market selection will be huge: Tyros2, Korg Pa1x, Pa1xPro, Pa800, Roland G70, Roland E80, PSR-S700/710/900/910.
I just sold 18 months old audya for 2200 GBP, just to give you some ideas.... well for 4k GBP I know what to buy... 
My original question was deliberately a bid offensive - mainly because I was seriously dissapointed when I started testing organ features of vArranger, now looks like I put the spanner in the works.... and this will stimulate developement of this product.

Let's get back to the merits....

Dan - thanks for your reply - tomorrow I will do some tests with SD2 - I will contect it directly (without vArranger) to different organ/keyboards to see what is happening wit tremolo / leslie. It sound really strange - this function was availabe in every organ 30 years ago, every decent arranger which I'm thinking of has it as well....anyway I will check it tomorrow.

I'm 100% sure that additional buttons are needed to control organ functions. I think that special windows (like lirycs) dedicated for organ drawbars would be a good idel - If SD2 drawbars are not any good, then this window could be used for vst (I like idea of vst - however for this specific project I would preffer to have a 'hardware' sound coming directly from SD2/ sound card).

Two independent drawbar controllers for lef/right hand are essential - at the moment left/right parts sound different until any drawbar is moved. For example putting Drawbar3 on let and Drawbar7 on right is fine until any drawbar is moved. When moved then drawbars start to control left/right at this same time resulting in having this same sound for left/right side. Option which you mentioned - like displaying one set of drawbars which are currently controlling selected channel is not good for me.... what about when I have to change drawbar setting for lower and upper manual at the same time?

I have seen VB3 - and seems to be a very good virtual hammond - however for this particular project I'm not sure if this is a great idea.

Regards,
Bartosz

[Dan]

To activate the LESLIE feature on the SD2, you have to send a specific SYSEX message.
If you connect it directly to your keyboard, you will never get a LESLIE effect from the SD2 !

We can add a special ORGAN window, with some specific buttons, and a second set of drawbars. We can also, just add a way to control the right and left drawbars without any screens, in OPTIONS/CONTROLLERS. What about if you put a drawbar sound on RIGHT 1 and another one in RIGHT 2 ?? Well we have to limit somewhere...

About the changing drawbars on many channels together, I have to check if it is true, and if yes, if it is a vArranger bug or a SD2 bug.

Anyway, every synth hardware or software has it's own midi implementation for drawbars. I am sure that SD2 and VB3 drawbars are not compatible as it.

Do you think SD2 drawbars sounds are good enough to sell an organ with it? (I am not an organ specialist)

[Bartosz]

Hi Dan,
Thanks for your quick reply.

I tried this - in fact having SD2 connected directly to Roland AT80SL I mangaged to get piano sound on upper/ lower /pedals - but was unable to change it - simply piano and no control over the SD2 - AT80SL has only few options in MIDI menu - channel selection -thats all . But I dont give up that easy... Next I connected SD2 to Technics SX-GA3 - good 15 years old but still one of the best home organ ever made. It has very interesting midi section menu - I managed to get almost all functions from SD2 controlled from organ panel - start/stop/ intro etc, rhytmn change, tempo, instrument change.... seems like SD2 is more or less compatible with Technics. I didn't managed to get drawbars to work... never mind.

Now let's get back to vArranger and drawbars. I have seen few posts regarding this problem on different website (synthzone.com) and looks like it must be some problem with midi implementation of this function.
Midi implementation for sD2 (page 42) says:CONTROL 1EH Rotor cc=00H off, cc=40H slow, cc=7FH fast. In my situation vArranger changes from fast to slow and from slow to fast when the chord is being hold. Doesn't change from rotary to off. (slow-->>off, Fast-->>off, off-->>slow, off-->>fast). Its strange.... but now I have 2 ideas  (I'm not a MIDI guru but it might work) What about changing  tremolo speed from cc=01H to cc=40H?? Instead of cc=00H use cc=01H. Its a very slow rotor speed - almost off...
Secondly I looked at Technics SX-GA3 which is 15 years old and still a good seller - it hasn't got rotary off function - when you switch tonewheel function you have two options: tremolo slow or tremolo fast....

It seems to me like the problem with tremolo doesn't only apply to drawbar sounds... there is a big selection of organ sounds in SD2. Whichever organd sound I play (Organ Voices) problem mentioned above always applies. On top of it some voices are Multi channel - then my question - how can I change tremolo effect on few channels with one button??

Coming back to your reply... I thing that screen for drawbars is important - vArranger can be operated without external midi controller i.e. touch screen - If I only use touchscreen how can I see the position of drawbars....and how will I change drawbars??

Dan, don't get me wrong - I still thing that vArranger is a good direction and I understand that there are the limits. I don't need drawbars for right1, right2 etc.... I just need 2 sets of drawbars like any drawbar organs - hammond for example. 1 set of drawbars for upper manual, one set of drawbars for lower.... it should be 2 drawbars for bass pedal - but I know - it's not possible.

I was thinking about vst implementation into vArranger, especially VB3 or something similar. As I said before - I'm very enthustiastic about vst in general, but very sceptic from the sales point of view. Implementation of vst into vArranger is a great idea for advanced users, but most of my customers buying organs are people 60-70-80 years old - therefore big number of them are not very computer orientated. To be able to use vst plug-ins in vArranger you need to implement vst host into the concept. If you have a vst host, then we have 2 problems: 1. people can instal any vst-plug-ins which means loads of problems for you, 2. vst plug-ins rely on procesor speed and memory - then you have a problem of minimum system requirements. At the moment vArranger should work (in my opinion) on Pentium3 with 512MB Ram provided that it has clean, fresh Windows XP installation. VB3 will still work on this configuration, but other vst certainly not.

OK, long post again - I'm going back to vArranger Now I'm trying to explore INS function (remember I have a beauty on board - SW1000XG).

Regards,
Bartosz

[jan1kow]

Bartosz
I think you should not include the cost of a laptop/notebook in your cost calculations.
We all need a laptop to exist these days. lol
Even the most expensive Tyros etc needds a laptop for back up etc.
So most modern musicians cannot be without a laptop and we all need WWW access.

The SD2 is not a dedicated or specialised module for organ sounds.
It is basically intended for all general midi sounds as you will be aware.

Maybe your personal needs with the Varranger will be added to Dan's list of things to do in future.
jon








   

[Bartosz]

Hi Jon,

I included the cost because of two reasons:

1. You said that vArranger is cheaper option than hardware arranger - but it doesn't work without a laptop does it? So, for someone considering purchase it has to be included. Secondly there is still a lot of people who use desktop computers - not a great idea to carry desktop for a gig.... I suppose.

2. Even taking into account the fact that every musican has a laptop - I would rather not let my wife go online with it night before a gig....viruses etc... I would preffer dedicated machine jst for music.

SD2 is not an organ expander - I know - such a think doesn't exist these days. But there is no difference between organ and a keyboard from sound/ rhythm / styles etc poin of view. Organ and keyboards use this same samples, styles, rhythms etc... Only difference is the way which all components are linked together and user interface. In fact SD2 is the only product within this price range. There is a Roland VK-8M organ module - but it hasn't got anything inside but organs. VK-7m by roland - more than twice as expensive as SD2, and Roland SD50 - looks interesting and costs as little as SD2 - but vArranger was designed to work with SD2....

Anyway I'm just trying to build a base for organ project - whether or not it will be succesful idea - we will see.

Regards,
Bartosz

[jan1kow]

Hi, Bartosz
Yes I have a dedicated laptop and I also carry a spare laptop and a spare SD2 and their small size and cost allows this possiblilty.
Because of the cost I can afford to unlike Tyros etc 
I take it you know about these organ options
(Sorry I never had time to really check their spec. in detail etc. )     
V5+ Tone Wheel Organ Module
http://www.voceinc.com/v5p.html
Hammond XM2
http://www.hammond-organ.com/
USB Charlie - Retro Organ Module
http://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/USB-Charlie-Retro-Organ-Module/24U
http://www.virtualorgancompany.com/

   

[Bartosz]

Hi Jon,

Yes, I have seen these websites - thanks anyway. Well you didn't get my idea quite well...
I'm not going to build another hammond clone based on whatever. Idea is to buid an organ like... Roland Atelier, Technics SX-GA3, or even Hammond, but for example XE-200. As I said - at the very beginning I will try not to include any vst plug-ins into this project. I want to buid an instrument classified as 'Home organ" - funny like a keyboard /arranger with styles rhythms auto acompaniaments etc, but with theatre, jazz, drawbar organ sounds. It has to be 2 manual / 13-20 pedal board instrument.
Look - my friend Chris plays one of the organs which I have for sale in my warehouse - look at to the drawbars and switches when he plays - then you understand my issue. And by the way - this organ is Hammond - but - home hammond - with rhythms, styles etc...and of course it can play puiano, strings and others....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2w5q8NrmPo

I don't know about you - but I'm going to bed.

Regards,
Bartosz

[Lylo]

Bonjour Bartosz, il est plus simple pour moi de vous répondre en français.

Je crois que vous ne vous positionnez pas bien vis à vis de vArranger.
Vous émettez vos critiques en fonction de ses capacités à gérer les drawbars et le Leslie.
Pour ma part ce sont des fonctions que je n'utilise jamais et je suis extrêmement content de vArranger.
Votre comparaison avec le matériel hardware est aussi un mauvais positionnement..
Bien sur qu' on trouve du matériel hardware d'occasion pour pas trop cher.
Mais vous êtes-vous demandez pourquoi on trouve ces claviers en occasion ?
vArranger + un pc portable + un sd2 on l'achète une bonne fois pour toute et il n'est pas nécessaire de les revendre pour avoir quelque chose de supérieur deux ans après puisque vArranger devient supérieur de mois en mois.

Il me semble que vous avez fait un mauvais choix de logiciel.
Pour l'utilisation que vous souhaitez faire, vous composer un orgue personnel, je pense que vous devriez vous tourner vers des plug-ins tel que le "B4" de Native instrument + un host vsti tel que "Cantabile" ou "Forte".
D'ailleurs cette formule vous permet de mélanger plusieurs orgues virtuels, de quoi trouver le son et les fonctions qui vous conviennent.
Et tout ça ne vous coutera pas plus cher que vArranger + SD2.

J'ajouterais une chose : Dan est un héro des temps modernes, voilà pourquoi vArranger me plait tant. 

[Deane]

Lylo,
I took the time to translate your post and I am in total agreement with what you had to say.  vArranger is that what the title says it is - an arranger.   Most people I know who buy arrangers buy them to perform with and if what they buy does what they require for their gigs that is all they ask of it. 

Personally, I am very glad I purchased vArranger and I use it every day.  I also believe in Dan and that he is rightfully proud of his creation.  I have been performing professionally now for nearly 50 years, have owned many instruments and not a single manufacturer provided the customer service we get from Dan.   Most of them could learn a lot from Dan.

Deane

[Lylo]

vArranger is Dan, that's all and that's a lot of things.

(writing without google translate)   

[Bartosz]

Hello,

Thanks for all your comments.
It looks to me like our conversation is now going in incorrect direction. Maybe because I started it with a bid offensive topic......

I'm not going to compare vArranger with hardware arrangers  - I didn't buy it to replace my current arranger, my plan was (and still is) to buid a home organ. vArranger has maybe only 20% features of the current models arrangers - so in my opinion it wouldn't survive that kind of comparison. One of my good customers who is a proffesional musican spent 4 hours with vArranger recently.... and only good think he said is ability to change instruments on all channels + INS function. He pointed out lack of many impotant functions which every arranger had good 10 years ago and have now, he critized lack of the logical core of the interface. In his opinion vArranger is a good idea but it looks like the developement of this product is going in few different directions driven by customer's needs, but at the moment none of these function has been fully completed.
In my first post I pointed some imperfections of the organ (drawbar) function - so far problems havent been sorted out and many of users say - go for VB3. My question is why should I do this??? When I buy a car and 3rd gear dosn't work then I would go to the service to get if fix.... Should I forget about the service and use 2nd and 4th gear instead?
I believe in Dan however I didn't personally exercise his help it terms of my needs....we will see. I know as good as you do how difficult the customer service may be when you deal with companies such as Yamaha, Roland, etc - we order parts from them and sometimes we need their help....and in many cases this is the real nightmare. But from the other side let me give you a little example - one of my main suplliers which is one of the biggest yamaha dealers in UK had sold 200 Tyros4 within first 3 weeks after the product became available and they could have sold more if the Tyros 4 was available from Yamaha.That means that Yamaha sells thousands of instruments all over the world every month.... I want to see Dan's customer service when he hes 100.000 copies of vArranger being sold.....
I'm still testing vArranger in my spare time and new looooong list of problems will be available soon...
And one little insert for those of you who want to compare vArranger+SD2 with any other instrument - SD2 is a very limited box, which has 64 voices of polyphony and 384 voices. I dont think that the future of vArranger will be based on SD2 only....

Best regards,
Bartosz

[Lylo]

I don't find in the hardwares arrangers what I find in vArranger.
I'm sorry but your comments are not on the good way.
May be you don't like informatic spirit.
And I don't understand your thread.
If the hardware arrangers also fantastic, why do you dont find a model for your projet ?
Apparently vArranger have some arguments for this function that you cannot find in Yamaha, Korg, Ketron and Roland, isn't it ?

Your comparaison vArranger vs Tyros and Dan vs Yamaha is ridiculous and I'm convinced David that as valuable as Goliath.

vArranger is imperfect but vArranger is the futur for the customers with a adventurous spirit.

[Bartosz]

Hi again,

Excellent post - I would like you to read this post from the beggining to the end once again and understand my point. At the the moment you read without understanding what I'm trying to express.

As I said vArranger is the best software arranger available on the market today (only 4 of 5 available in total) and I don't want to compare it with hardware arrangers. It has some features which are not available easy way in hardware - that's I decided to buy it for my project. As I said before - previus attempts to convert a hardware arrangers into organs were unsuccesful- doesn't matter which arranger was used.

I'm not going to give you a list of features which you will find in current hardware arrangers (non existing in vArranger) because my original topic would turn into discussion about arrangers in general.

My comparison Yamaha vs Dan was only to show you how difficult is to make a product which will satisfy every customer and how difficult is to provide the customer service when we talk about thousands of of product being sold... It's not easy isn't it???

I just want a product which works as it should without technical problems - that what I want.

I bought the product fo 350 EURO without english manual, without demo version available (I don't understand why demo is not available???), on the original vArranger website (english version) there is nothing about this software except youtube demos and gallery. All the knowledge about this product was from this disscusion forum.... Buying process took 3 days, program was recognized by my antivirus as potentialy dangerous - finally I had to change my antivirus. Now I have technical issues with tremolo/leslie, drawbars and when I pointed it out then people advice me to switch to vst B3 organ..... great start.

Anyway I will stick with vArranger for a bid longer to see where it goes.

And please refrain from making any further comparisons of vArranger to any hardware arrangers. I don't want to be involved in this, neither I want to diconstruct you believe in vArranger and its developer Dan.
Dan is doing excellent job and fingers cross one day he will bring it to the final stage.

Best regards,
Bartosz.

[Lylo]

Ok Bartosz, friendly.
You are a recent customer and you don't have the recul for judge vArranger.
When you have worked longer time with vArranger you discovered all the avantage of this système and the inconvenience become derisory.
What comments you have done it a year ago on vArranger ? They would very disapointed.
vArranger have make some great evolution month after month, and the evolutions are directly from the customers needs.
The only conditions for the really happy customers with this software and with Dan it's to have some little patience.
Dan is alone for develop vArranger, you make a bet when you buy vArranger, and it is not really a buy, it's rather a participation at the creation of the best arranger software present and futur.

If you agree this philosophy you become happy with vArranger and Dan.

Welcome in club !

Best regards.

[Lylo]

Code Select Expand

Sorry for my english, I write and read with the help of google translator, i speak english badly and I try too get better with this forum.   ;) :)

[Lylo]

Another thing, I bought vArranger late August 2010 and I actually used on stage (professional) that as of end November 2010.
I waited for Dan develops some features I needed before using it fully.
It is software, so we can't have the same approach work with a hardware arranger.
It should configure everything yourself and sometimes you make mistakes.
I recently restored a problem that I suffered for months.
I thought it was a bug vArranger but it was a handling error on my part.
  Do not try to find your habits on vArranger but rather tried to find news.
A new world awaits you ....

(fully transcribed French to English by google traductor, is it better?)

[Deane]

Here is another professional player that gigs daily with vArranger and I find very little I need it to do on the job that it will not do.    It has been about 8 months since I started using vArranger on gigs and for starters it is far easier to setup songs on it than ANY arranger I have owned which includes ALL the Roland, Korg, and Yamaha flagship arrangers since about 2005.  Changing parts of styles or voices in a style is far easier with vArranger than on the keyboards.   

Deane

[Dan]

Interesting discussion.

I will answer later this week.

Many organ players ask me about vArranger, and I think most of what they need can be done easily now.

I am happy to have a user like Bartosz who seems to know well the market, and the need of organ players.

His talking is quite aggressive, but many things he said are true.

Thanks to all my supporters who felt offended when talking negative about vArranger.

Let's try to be efficient. Talking about missing features and the best way to implement them.

Regards,

Dan

   

[Lionel]

Hi to All,

My turn 

Dan is right in what he said on his last post.

We should be welcoming newbies of vArranger and then encourage development.

But then we should not have someone come along and say things they find wrong with vArranger
and of course the vArranger community bites back.

We must remember Bartosz wants to find a suitable program for HIS project and finds things are not all it seems.
Well ok, but WHY? such a offensive TOPIC heading ----Re: Are you really happy with this product???-------

Why not something like --- Organ features of vArranger---- Can we develop these?

or --- Can vArranger be developed for organ players----

or ---something to highlight a need or the sort..

It seems we have our 1st forum war in a sense for the vArranger community and our newcomer.

If things requested can be done then we all WIN WIN, otherwise leave the forum members in peace and find alternatives.

We believe in vArranger and DAN and that is why we purchased and use vArranger.

Hope I find positive reading of the forum soon

Regards
Lionel

[fazfaz]

Dan,

I think if there was one lesson from this topic that takes up valuable time for everyone (writing and reading) and smelling the bad times for some and almost smug admiration for to others, it's the need for a demo version of vArranger. Indeed, before deciding to purchase software that price it would be good to get an idea of its possibilities and especially if it matches their needs which does not seem to be the case of Bartosz. Personally I decided in consultation with the forum, which is not necessarily the most objective way to get an idea.

Now I realize that this question of the Demo seems to be a taboo and that whenever the question is there seems to be beating around the bush.

Dan you should explain clearly on this issue (technical reason, the risk of piracy, lack of time, ...).

Other than that I'd like to confirm my trust and my support and tell you that your conception of the development of vArranger suits me perfectly.

But please avoid this kind of aggressive limit debate on the forum.

(Sorry it's also a google translation)

[Lylo]

No demo version limits the risk of piracy, it's on.
Ideally vArranger can be used online as a flash file, I do not know if technically possible.

[fazfaz]

I think like you but it's better to tell it

[Bartosz]

Good Morning everyone!!

Well, well.... now it's really funny to read all your comments, it really is.... I had very long day yestarday and felt very tired when I woke up. But now some of your comments brought me back to my normal good spirit. Thank you...!!

DAN

Thank you very much for your reply - it seems to me like you are the only person who wants to talk about merits, technical problems and improvements. Thats great. And by the way on this forum you have an army of who will give their blood to deffend you and vArranger..... who knows - maybe one day I will apply for my membership, maybe I will join them. But you have brave soldiers here... that's for sure.
I hope we can work together and effectively implement organ features to vArranger - I have 25 different models of organs on stock now - I can find the best features from them, then you will find the way of implementation. My spare time is very limited - for the next week or so I will be very busy, but I still test the vArranger and I will prepare the list of question for you very soon....
Sorry for an agressive writing...I'm just a poor salesman....but I will Improve

NOW - For EVERONE/b] who follows this topic.

Questions:
Who is a PROFESIONAL user ? We sell around 10 instruments a week (pianos, organs, arrangers) and I have seen different proffesionals.
Here is what I have found on Wikpedia.org:
'A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and orchestrate them with uncommon skill. Traditional examples of professionals included doctors, lawyers, and clergy but is now more widely used to include estate agents, surveyors , environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators and many more. It is also used in sport to differentiate amateur players from those paid for their work. Hence professional footballer or professional golfer.
Simply - proffesional musican is the person who plays for money...
I have sold a proffesional arranger recently to the person who asked me a silly question: "How can I disable the keyboard (black and white part of the instrument)? I said: Why want you do that? He answered: I play on wedding parties....from the usb memory stick...
Can you believe it? He plays midi files pretending that it is a live performance...and people pay for it....
Just to make a long story shorter - I think that we all have this same rights to express our opinions and fact that some of you play professionaly doesn't give you the right to kick me out of this forum...

TO LIONEL - Thanks for your comments:

1.  In my first post I pointed out some imperfections regarding leslie/ drawbars / screen etc. So far we have 26 posts on this topic and solution and advice has not been found. (except switchng to VB3 vst which I dont want). I didn't even started asking for changes regarding organ players - I just expessed my opinion about features that would be helpful for organs i.e. 2 sets of drawbars, proper action of tremolo on/off button etc.

2. Yes I'm trying to find a suitable program for my project... what's wrong with it? You were looking for program that suits your needs and you found a vArranger - thats great.  Apparently most of the important features needed for organ players are already within vArranger. Modern organs are not much different from arrangers....

3. Features which I will want Dan to improve will not be only for organ players - I will post some ideas very soon - you will see the benefits for youself as well (I hope).

4. Yes it looks like a war... but I don't really know what we are fighting for? Yes we all can WIN WIN - but please talk about merits .....

TO DEAN.
Thanks for your comment. I agree with you opinion that setting up vArranger it's quick and easy. 10 years ago I bought aRoland VA7 - it was top of the range model, very nice sounds but it had almost nothing on the front panel. It was very difficult to play live. Current arrangers are much easier to set up and they have loads of features for live performing. But vArranger can still be improved by adopting the most practical features from hardware arrangers.

To LYLO.

Your English without google translator is good - dont't worry - English is not my first language - I'm Polish. Probably most of the people talking part in this conversation  are not english speakers as their first language...
You said: 'you make a bet when you buy vArranger, and it is not really a buy, it's rather a participation at the creation of the best arranger software present and futur. Well it's nice to spent some money on gambling, isn't it?? I hope you expess you personal opinion, not developer's one... I didn't find anything about  making bets...or supporting (donating) developement of this product when I bought it.... But don't worry I don't take it seriously...

TO FAZFAZ AND LYLO.

I understand the risk of piracy, but vArranger is not a cheap software. I now exactly the way the way vArranger is protected and is difficult to break this protection. But for the demo version there are different ways  - many companies make a special demo with limited functionality (like noise every 10 seconds, limited functions, disabled save option, 2 styles and 5 voices etc). Then after testing customer can buy full working vesion with hardware key protection.
I still believe that vArranger will suit my needs - maybe not a current version but it's close to what I need.

Regards,
Bartosz

[Lylo]

Bartosz, let us be clear.
The thoughts that you have done on the varranger I'm all I do too.
I too was disappointed with certain things missing and I'm waiting for some others.
I also hesitate to put the amount requested in this program that I saw complètementr not successful.
However, as I try to explain it, I saw the whole point of vArranger in the action of its designer and when I see the results it gives I am not disappointed with my € 350, I am even ready to give more.
And many of us think like that.

My definition of a professional musician is: a musician who lives music.
I have lived all my life than music.

vArranger currently helps me to live music ... Perhaps better than did Korg, Roland and Yamaha.

(and I also play on mp3! lol) 

(translated by Google)

[Dan]

I just tried using 2 drawbars sounds on 2 different midi channels with my SD4.
Bartosz is right. When you change drawbars on one channel, it change it on the 2nd channel too.

It's unfortunately not a problem with vArranger. When I send the message only on one channel, the SD4 changes it for both.

What can we do? ask to Ketron if it's a bug that can be corrected with a software update, or if it's a SD2/SD4 limitation......

By the way, I corrected the drawbars displaying after a screen resize, on the next coming version.