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Halion Sonic + Varranger optimization question.

Started by bluebeat, March 02, 2019, 09:08:38 PM

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bluebeat

Folks, Dan I have couple of questions to those who use Halion Sonic with vArranger.
I use it as a standalone/main "sound module" with Varranger, using virtual Midi cable, not as VST.
It works, but every time things have to be re-voiced heavily, no matter which style it is for Yamaha, Roland etc. Is it possible to optimize it to play well with vArranger, similar to vSynth?  I do use GM mode of Halion of course. I have tried switching varranger Midi outputs to GM, GM2, XG(thinking that Halion is Yamaha), made no difference.

Any suggestions please?

Thank you.

Dan

I don't know Halion Sonic very good.
In GM Mode, it should have the 128 GM sounds. I think you can replace the 128 GM sounds by other ones from the Halion library that you like better

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=140418

Lylo


bluebeat

Lylo, I tried that,made no difference. Actually VA hanged on me couple of times with Halion loaded as VST. It is much more stable when in standalone mode with virtual cable. What bothers me is this. If I take a free, very basic GM SF2 font, it plays fine styles made for Roland or Yamaha. Percussion channel 9, mapped correctly and overall, it might sound cheap, but correct.

Halion Sonic is the only current professional software with GM mode and it does not play correctly  most of styles. Probably my requests will not be heard, but I feel that VA would benefit proper GM conversion to module (percussion!  especially) and several popular drum maps that can be applied on output. Similar to Drummica, that has several maps and in most cases, one would work properly with any given style when using VA.

GM hardware modules are the past.  There is almost nothing produced these days specifically for GM midi except for high end arranger keyboards that have that feature. Stuff is done through software. I believe that things which I mentioned should be done at the "source" (in this case VA) not on output.

Lylo

But with HS inside vArranger we can use less resources.
Channel 9 for percussion is not for gm sounds, for example for Ketron styles is only some notes for play some sliced samples.
Normally with the Yamaha styles you can get the best results because the sounds of HS are made by Yamaha.
And you can replace the factory gm sounds by better as Dan explain.

bluebeat

Lylo,
my computer can handle VA + Sonic just fine. I do not need to be conservative on computer resources to sacrifice stability.
By optimization,I meant for the styles to play more or less correctly.

As I mentioned: Free, random GM SF2 bank found on internet loaded in vsynth plays styles more correctly than Sonic.
This should not be like this. I hope this is making more sense now.

Dan

Listen every track, and let me know what is not good, on what kind of styles

bluebeat

Dan,
various random styles... (for different keyboards)
Maybe, just a suggestion.  Halion Sonic SE is free (If you do not have one already) I believe it shares same GM library as full version.  Just try it to see how random styles play for you.
I find Sonic much more intuitive than Kontakt, and unlike Kontakt (Sampletank, etc) It has GM / Program change feature.

I believe the biggest challenge is not wrong instruments playing, but the drum mapping and percussion channel. I do not see why this can not be done in vArranger.  Re-Map can be applied before it goes out from vArranger.  Drums where always a challenge in vA for me.  If vArranger truly supports multi format styles, drum maps should be a part of vArranger, not to re-map manually each kit externally for individual styles. There only 5 or so popular maps and having the right one, makes huge difference.




bluebeat

#8
To summarize many drums (+ percussion channel) are not converted correctly from vArranger to standard GM mode modules, and I believe the most logical solution is a possibility to change global drum maps, corresponding to the style played. So you do not change the particular style or particular drum set, but only a map.

Woge1000

#9
I use Halion6 and Halion Sonic3
I do not have to use the GM mode any more. I just need to use Halion for Genos styles today. Only use the good guitars or the drums. Directly in GM mode it just does not sound like drums without CH 9.Also edit styles, resave song and is good.
Wolfgang from Hamburg
p.s. Directly in GM mode, it works better with Hypersonic2

Dan

Yes drum kits remapping is a real challenge, as every arranger has many drum kits, and they are not all GM compliant, so the original style use a non GM drum kit, so it will sound bad on your GM drum kit.
vArranger already remap some of the drum kits, but not all

Let me know if you find that for exp the drumkit 127.32.12 note 23 always need to be remapped to note 42
I can include this in some vArranger maps that will profit to everyone

bluebeat

Dan,
I think that rather than hunting for particular styles  that might or might not have errors it is better to have maps, that would send "re-mapped" drums to destination.
When I use Sennheiser Drummica VST for drums in VA, it has several popular maps. In most cases one would work with almost any style. I think if vArranger is positioned as multi style arranger, that is the only true solution to the problem.

Instruments can be re-voiced. Drums are major pain.

Dan, I do not believe this is algorithm. You can "push" maps "blindly" meaning, if it works, it works, if it does not, try another one. Like Drummica. It can be a part of the "drum mixer"... Which can output these re-mapped drums to either software (v-synth or other) or hardware module. I think this can be a very elegant solution.

Misha.

Dan

Drum mappings depends on the original source drum kit and the destination sound module drum kit

bluebeat

Dan, sure it does. But given all the work you have done, I think it is possible to do a few other "scenarios" that can be pushed manually to try to find "best" alternative for drums if style has incorrect drums notes playing.  You know, like radio....You turn one direction or other trying to find the best signal :)

Dan

You will switch between then bongo or whistle instead of kick and will get a triangle for the snare drum...
If things are not well defined by someone smart, it will not work by a good amount of luck

bluebeat

Dan,
In many cases I do get exactly what you described above, that is why I am proposing choice of several maps.
And possibly in your drum mixer a choice of reassigning / moving any "particular" note playing to any "other" note manually, to get things close to original style or to liking.

bluebeat

Dan,  if maps are complex, perhaps manual note shift/change in drum mixer?
should not be hard at all and you already have "drum mixer" At least this way it would be possible to adjust particular style drums to ANY module, software or hardware.

What do you think?

Lylo

Drum mixer with save preset and after store in save sound.

agaton

Quote from: bluebeat on March 06, 2019, 02:36:28 PM
At least this way it would be possible to adjust particular style drums to ANY module, software or hardware.
No, it s not possible. this commands are SysEx (or NRP/NRPR) Midi events and they are typical for
one Instrument. Many of hardware or software instruments haven't no one way to control every
Drum Note. Drum Mixer in vArranger can control Drum Notes in Ketron Modules and in SF2 Drum
Instruments (restricted).

bluebeat

Agaton,  I do not believe you understood what this post is asking for.
It is asking for Manual remap and save of drums in Varranger. Has absolutely nothing to do with sysex etc.

What I proposed is open "Drum mixer" in VA and change the notes(s)  that play "wrong" to correct or ones you want for it (varranger) to output. And save changes with style.

Dan, please comment.  To my understanding, this is much easier solution that would work for everybody who is using vArranger and have wrong notes on the drums playing for ANY style, regardless of the module they use.




agaton

I understud very well your question, cause of that I had try to explain that is not
posible to make it in Drum Mixer. Drum Mixer has his other function and hasn't
any margin with Midi Note remaping. You wrote "...should not be hard at all and
you already have drum mixer..."
. This remaping of Midi Notes for all Modules
or Software Drum Instruments will be very, very big job and it will be very hard !!!

bluebeat

Agaton,  this is simple programming.  Maybe not for beginner, but very intermediate.
It is question if Dan is willing to go a step forward, helping loyal customers or not.

This sentence tells me that you did not understand the request:
"This remaping of Midi Notes for all Modules
or Software Drum Instruments will be very, very big job and it will be very hard !!!"

I request to MANUALLY  be able to change note(s). NOT universal for "all Modules", as you said. You change notes for your module - I change notes for my module. Makes sense?








agaton

Repeat, I did understand all, really all !!! Change Notes or make Remapping
for your Module, what is the problem. One of Midi Processing software
like Bomes Translator make it excellent. All good VST Drums Instruments
have a few most important Mappings, for this VST Drum Instruments you
need only to select what Mapping you will and that's all.

bluebeat

Agaton,
yes, there are ways. Many "other" ways like more software on the chain, tweaking module individual notes and a dozen other things. But my belief is that if vArranger positions itself as multi format style player.... If style does not play correctly, At least it should be possible to move note(s) so they play correctly from vArranger, not at destination or something between vArranger and destination.

I believe what I am requesting is fairly simple and would benefit most people that have issues with drum maps. If you do not care about it, why respond?


Lylo

Yes... but no. It's more useful if it's in vArranger. Why ? Because you need learn only one process for mapping every drums, in the vsti you must learn as much as process you have vsti.

Edit : cross post bluebeat

agaton

It will be better naturally, but it is to many new data in a vA² and
it is not only one mapping, it will be many, many mappings if it
will be in kind of Mapping Presets. To make only one function
in vA² which user later can mapp or remap Midi notes for his
Module or software instrument(s) and save it with Style, is the
same thing. It can be very useful when implement of this function
in vA² will be not a big problem for programming or if this haven't
negative influence to whole (to time) very good stability and big
efficiency of vA². But... for both ways it will be a big job. With
one Midi processing  app like Bomes Translator, it will be not pressure
for system and it will be work hidden in a background.

bluebeat

Dan,
kindly reply.
Last time, when we talked about MIDI "sync in" features, Agaton came up with false assessment insulting my findings and my hardware, knowing nothing of the problem or workflow. Thread got hundreds of views and he stopped posting bogus statements only after you clarified that VA is not to sync with clock. I promised to behave, that is why I am asking you kindly to intervene and clarify if what I & Lylo proposed is possible to include in update, so thread I started would not be polluted with baseless statements.

Thank you.






agaton

You are totally wrong with your conclusion about my "assessment" !!!
Don't write about things which are strange for you, please. My discuss
was not aborted cause Dan wrote that vA² has not internal Clock, many
apps or programs have not internal clock, but this is irrelevant cause
all apps which haven't internal clock become clock from system (Win).

bluebeat

Agaton, I promised Dan that I would behave. I have no desire to engage in polemics with you.

agaton


bluebeat

Dan, since you answered previous post, can you please find a minute and reply to this one?
Thank you.

Dan

Yes , being able to change the mappings can be a nice feature
Even if I prefer to integrate it in the core engine, so everyone will benefit from it, and all kinds of setups

bluebeat

Dan, thank you for the reply!
Just think of all the benefits for users and you. The next time somebody will have a problem with drums, they can just re-map to whatever they want  instead of bugging you with particular style or particular setup. Hope you will give this serious consideration. Thank you.