Author Topic: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth  (Read 1566 times)

Offline bluebeat

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Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« on: July 02, 2018, 09:13:05 PM »
To those who use SF2 Banks (other than Dans).  I had done a long research on alternatives to Varranger Vsynth in a form of VST sampler... To use large SF2 banks in other software, so it plays arrangements made in Varranger midi files correctly. About a dozen of available VST have 4 main issues:
1)No bank / program changes
2)No GM support
3)Does not accept multiple file SF2 banks
4) Outdated 32bit, without a support for many years.

Then I remembered Synthfont (synthfont.com).. The owner released a 64 BIT VST, which actually works better than any other VST I have tried. Still does not have multiple file support, BUT owner agreed to give it a try and make adjustments to his 64 bit VST to support large banks and multiple files. I can confirm that mr. Kenneth started working on it as he sent me version for testing. It is not stable yet, but his words:
"I'll get it to work. I have managed very well before, I am confident."

I keep my fingers crossed and hope he will follow through. I promised him that I will post this here to see who might be interested in such VST.  If it works out, this will be in my opinion the only true software alternative to Dan vsynth to be used in different audio programs.

Kindly post your thoughts as my knowledge is limited. What features it should have besides these 4:
1) 64 Bit
2) Large, multi file SF2 file support (non encrypted)
3) Bank/ Patch change
4) GM rules.

Thank you.






Offline trans17a

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2018, 09:49:57 PM »
Why don't you use BassMidiVsti_x64 from http://falcosoft.hu/softwares.html ?  It is free and i think way much better than any other.

The link is: http://falcosoft.hu/open_metronome_bassmidi.zip

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 10:39:25 PM »
trans17a...

I tried that.
BassmidiVSTi does NOT: change banks in multi file setup correctly and only has 4 slots for SF2, Does not have 16 channel mixer upfront where you can change instruments, volumes on one page.

If synthfont will succeed (and I have confidence it will) it will have a way to point to a FOLDER of SF2 Files. No matter if there is a single file or
many in that bank. 

The synthfont VST is not ready for multiple files yet, but you can try with single bank.
http://www.synthfont.com/Downloads.html

The file is:
VSTSynthFont (3.000) - VST instrument

32 or 64 bit.

15 days full working demo.

Offline trans17a

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 07:22:16 AM »
Another alternative is to try VirtualMIDISynth that has 16 channel mixer upfront where you can change instruments and correct large, multi file SF2 file support.
The newst version just added MIDI Mixer to MIDI Converter. Added also channel "solo" feature to MIDI Mixer.
It can be enabled/disabled by clicking on the new "solo" button or by pressing the S key (while the channel is selected).
Solo ratio can be configured with Mixer context menu.
Is not a vsti BUT you can save the song in varranger as midi and import it in VirtualMIDISynth and then export each channel in sync to each other from the begining with one bar space
as you wish. After exporting, audiofiles does not drift and stay in sync together. After that put them in a daw and add your vst fx.

https://coolsoft.altervista.org/en/virtualmidisynth

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 08:18:01 AM »
trans17a, of course I tried coolsoft. Developer is a nice guy. It is not a VST at all. It was meant for other purposes.

I do not understand, why you are keep suggesting something else? I believe I found the solution and a
caring, dedicated developer who is willing to try to modify his VST. Why dont you try a working synthfont demo that will accept single file SF2 bank?

The point of this thread is to have a discussion on who might be interested in it and what features it should have besides ones it already has and ones I have mentioned.

Anybody?

Offline trans17a

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 03:21:54 PM »
Sorry but i only wanted to help you find an ''Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth'' as the the topic says.
If you have found already the best alternative and is the Synthfont and  developer will try to modify his vst the way you want i dont
understand the purpose of this topic.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 03:38:38 PM »
From previous reply to your post:

"the point of this thread is to have a discussion on who might be interested in it and what features it should have besides ones
it already has and ones I have mentioned."

Since it is a work in progress, it is wise to think of the features to be available right away, because it might be more complicated to add them later.



Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2018, 11:49:03 AM »
V.muller.... you probably did not read the post.
I know about the programs you posted. These do not work well for one reason or another.
I already found the program that would behave very similar to vsynth in form of 64bit VST.

Synthfont.com

Developer agreed to modify it a little to make it work with large, multifile banks. He already done main work. I already have a beta version that works that I am testing.

Once more:

"the point of this thread is to have a discussion on who might be interested in it and what features it should have besides ones it already has and ones I have mentioned."

Since it is a work in progress, it is wise to think of the features to be available right away, because it might be more complicated to add them later.

Synthfont developer, unlike someone we know, does what he says. I do not want to miss this rare oppurtunity by not asking him for something that might be very usefull in the future.

Offline stewbow

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2018, 03:49:58 PM »
Will the Synthfont work in VArranger so that all the correct sounds are automatically selected irrespective of whether you are using Ketron, Korg, Roland or Yamaha files like Dan's SoundBanks do at the moment??

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2018, 04:25:01 PM »
stewbow.,

synthfont VST is for a bit different purpose. My hope is that synthfont would be able to play midi files saved in varranger in other places like DAWS for recording and complex editing using SF2 Banks. Most of samplers available either old crap that nobody updated for many years or they have limitations such as not being able to load large SF2 banks or multi file banks, do not respond to program changes etc.  Synthfont VST is the most perspective one in my opinion to do all those things. And most importantly developer is a nice guy, who cares.

It sure can have some very nice features to be used in Varranger. Such as use it as VST with a different set of SF2 files other than one in "Samples" folder to layer some sounds or substitute some sounds that are not in the bank without doing editing to main bank etc.
 

Offline eallan

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 05:02:14 PM »
To trans17a ,
You say ".... VirtualMIDISynth that has 16 channel mixer upfront where you can change instruments ...."
Tried right click in mixer window ,  but do not see how to change the instrument.
How do you change the instruments?

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 05:37:55 PM »
eallan, I do not believe it is possible.
I talked to that developer a few years ago and I do not believe it was not implemented. Coolsoft is solid, but it is VERY limited.

 

Offline eallan

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2018, 06:27:35 PM »
Hi bluebeat ,
On your recommendation , I went to the SynthFont site and noticed the freeware SyFonOne.
I have been able change the voices playing in Impro-Visor by piping its midi output via LoopBe1
to SyFonOne and using right click/Select SoundFont Preset. Very useful to be able do this.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 06:30:20 PM by eallan »

Offline trans17a

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2018, 09:24:57 PM »
To eallan. Only through program changes from midi file.

Offline lakere

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 11:18:46 PM »
stewbow.,

synthfont VST is for a bit different purpose. My hope is that synthfont would be able to play midi files saved in varranger in other places like DAWS for recording and complex editing using SF2 Banks. Most of samplers available either old crap that nobody updated for many years or they have limitations such as not being able to load large SF2 banks or multi file banks, do not respond to program changes etc.  Synthfont VST is the most perspective one in my opinion to do all those things. And most importantly developer is a nice guy, who cares.

It sure can have some very nice features to be used in Varranger. Such as use it as VST with a different set of SF2 files other than one in "Samples" folder to layer some sounds or substitute some sounds that are not in the bank without doing editing to main bank etc.
Thanks, Bluebeat.  I just wrote to the owner of Synthfont myself about the new version he's working on.   

Offline Lylo

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Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2018, 04:41:44 PM »
Lylo, seems you did not read this thread. Someone already "suggested" that falconsoft VST.

This falconsoft is limited by not having mixer upfront, it has only 5 slots for SF2 files/banks.

Synthfont in my opinion is 10 steps ahead. Plus, owner is listening to his customers.

Multi-bank SF2 synthfont VST is in development stage, and I can confirm it is working! You can try the VST that is available for single bank now as full working demo for 30 days. And compare two. 

I did.

Offline Lylo

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2018, 04:46:48 PM »
I just reading in diagonal and as I read "Coolsoft" and as it's the same engine I think "Bass midi".
If I create a song with the export midifile of the songchords I prefer use some vsti as Halion Sonic, Sampletank, Independence, Kontakt and many more.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2018, 06:24:48 PM »
Of course you do...me too..
But will it handle a large multifile SF2 banks and follow GM rules?? With some wierd scripting maybe / partially. Short answer, no.
Different animals for different jobs.  Synthfont is the right animal for this task.

Offline lakere

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2018, 03:03:21 AM »
The owner of Synthfont replied to my email inquiry with very detailed information.   It seems that the new version he is working on at the request of Bluebeat is going to enhance vArranger both for recording and even for live performance.  I went ahead and purchased a license.  Only 15 Euros but you get two products plus the new version he is working on currently.   I believe many users of vArranger will benefit from Bluebeat's quest for some needed features.

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2018, 06:07:08 AM »
I also just tried the VSTSynthFont (3.000) - VST instrument and that's what I need. I will buy too. great

Offline Lylo

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2018, 02:04:57 PM »
Ok, I knew the old version and it isn't not very good, vst synthfont seems better now and a good tool.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2018, 05:57:52 PM »
Lylo. It is a good tool for sure. I am glad you tried it!
The 2 items that I have asked developer to make is.

A) Have true "SOLO / MUTE" buttons by each track.
It has a similar functions with keyboard shortcut now, but true SOLO / MUTE would be better in my opinion.

B)To have instrument picker at the track to "SEE" all similar instruments in SF2 folder, not just selected bank.
Guitars with guitars, pianos with pianos etc.


Lylo or any other member. If you trying this VST and see a bug or some feature missing that is crucial to play back VA arrangements, please
comment here or directly to developer.

Developer assured me that he is going to work on this VST within next couple of months, sometimes it is easier to modify program while it is in raw stage.

Thank you.

Offline stewbow

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2018, 06:49:14 AM »
BlueBeat
Is it your intention to have a version of Synthfont as a Sound Source in VArranger and also in Cakewalk aswell.
Would you then. in VArranger Set it up to suit a particular style, save as a midi file and then load that midi file into Cakewalk with the intention of having the same set of sounds as a staring point??

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2018, 11:47:00 AM »
stewbow,
Saved MIDI file from VA to Cakewalk and use primarily in Cakewalk as virtual sound module for SF2 banks.
This VST allows for 16 individual audio outputs to tracks. So I can record several tracks simultaneously directly in Cakewalk.

I would prefer to stream separate channels directly from VA to Cakewalk, but did not found a good way.

P.S. Another thing... There are no 64 bit VST that I could find that would accept large multi file SF2 banks, follow GM and have, mixer upfront and allow for individual track audio output. For 15 euro it is a good tool. Hopefully it will become better in near future.





Offline stewbow

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2018, 12:20:37 PM »
BlueBeat
I wish you all the goodwill in the world, and I do hope that this works for you.

However..........I have waisted endless hours in the past trying to get VArranger midi files to sound barley acceptable in Cakewalk with various VSTs and sound modules, they don't sound anywhere near as good as the out of the box sounds that VArranger attached to a SD1 for instance.
Take also for instance the Tyros files. These files have been programmed by brilliant guys in perfect perfect facilities to get the truly incredible sounds that they produce. Are you going to be able to get even close to these sounds by building your own GM bank.

Incidentally, I played a couple of the Midi demos on the Synthfont site, Time and Band on the Run, and I wasn't impressed, it sounded like they were were more of a live band, rather than a studio produced performance, but then....... sometimes that what you might be looking for.

It's not for me, I agree with you that Dans Sound banks as a VST is what really is required.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2018, 09:22:05 PM »
stewbow...

Lets pause here for a second..
Have you heard demos on this forum by Atakiss..thread titled "KETRON SD9 SF2 DEMO" or TA Sound engine SF2?
In my opinion quality of those 2 banks are way higher than SD2 module (which I had)

In any case, I spent great deal of time too, trying to merry VA to Cakewalk.
Dan was not helpful. So, I found the most "able" contender which is Synthfont 64bit VST for large SF2 banks.
But what is most important, the developer is a nice guy and he really tries to listens to what is needed to be done.

It might never evolve to be a dream SF2 engine. Or it might come out to be the best one for this task. The purpose of this thread is to make people who are interested in such tool aware, that there is such VST in the process.
Most of sound is moving from hardware to software direction. Except of course for instruments and controllers.  There are many people, including me that feel SF2 format still has great potential. Kontakt does not "feel" this way, because they want to sell licences and get that piece of the pie. At the end of the game it still same old WAV files :)

Sorry to not answer to your question straight, but yes, my goal is persuade developer to tweak VST so midi file does sound same as in va :)





Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2018, 11:20:15 PM »

Here is the blind test of midi file created in VA from style played back in Cakewalk using synthfont VST and also loaded and played back through VA. (same soundfonts)  Can you tell which file was played where?

Offline Dan

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2018, 11:42:09 PM »
A) is vArranger  :P

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2018, 06:56:33 PM »
I bought the VSTSynthFont (3.000). How can I get new update?

Thank you.

Zeljko

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2018, 07:51:42 PM »
Ask developer directly. Tell him it is for Multibank SF2. He knows. It is still a beta and has some bugs, but enough to get started.

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2018, 09:14:38 PM »
Many Thanks. The developer has promised me update tomorrow to send

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2018, 09:50:57 PM »
zeljko, keep in mind it is test version, not very stable when setting banks for first time, but once you set it up, should work fine.
If you see any issues, please tell developer. He is listening and will try to address them.

There are a few people who are using outdated Samplelord... You can ask developer for demo of multi file Synthfont. I believe now it is a good time to bring suggestions to him. Samplelord was not updated for years and most likely abandoned by developer.

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2018, 10:45:17 PM »
I think he will send me the multi-bank SF2 synthfont VST tomorrow. I hope he understood what I need

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 02:29:04 PM »
Yesterday I got the developer New Update Synthfont VST but that does not work well. I hope he does something else.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2018, 02:37:45 PM »
It does work well, once you set it up correctly. It is a VST, not a standalone synth.  The only obvious issue I found is percussion channel that has to be set up manually. On developer website there are instructions.
I set up a template in Cakewalk. So once I open that template, I just have to import a Midi file from Varranger and it is ready to record.

Offline stewbow

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2018, 07:08:18 AM »
Bluebeat
So is this the answer to the problem that you had?

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2018, 11:42:17 AM »





I thought that the Vst Synth will work the same way as Dan's softsynth with benches. So that you can roll out the instruments from Varranger.

Offline stewbow

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2018, 07:45:58 PM »
Sorry Zeljko

I didn't your last comment post.

a little lost in translation maybe??

Offline zeljko

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2018, 09:13:39 PM »
No problem, I know. I wrote the bluebeat.

Offline bluebeat

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2018, 09:51:45 PM »
 zeljko,
 I have several SF2 banks that I use with varranger.  It is a bit difficult to answer your question...depending on your setup and usage but basically yes, so I can use multifile SF2 banks (sounds) without major tweaking in other software.

For example, Synthfont VST can be used for recording multitrack audio from MIDI file made in VA in DAW or adding complex chain effects on individual tracks, which usually CRASH VA, because it is not  sophisticated enough compared with most major modern DAWS in their "hosting" abilities. For advanced mixing etc. I know, it is far from perfect, but it is the only thing that I know of that actually works.
I guess that answers stewbow post too. I am sure that varranger (vsynth) can be improved greatly, including proper audio communication with other software, but we get what we get and synthfont VST seems to be best candidate for the job.

I explained my view to Kenneth, that he has to focus more on GM/GS compatibility for his VST to be attractive. I believe he understands that and will improve. This is not rocket science. It is just passion and will of programmer.



Offline stewbow

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Re: Alternative SF2 VST to Vsynth
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2018, 06:05:17 AM »
thanks