Author Topic: change chords with VST  (Read 1285 times)

Offline olivier71500

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change chords with VST
« on: June 30, 2018, 07:08:17 AM »
Hello

When playing VST Varranger is changing chords only on the 1st time of the groove.
If there is a chord change on the 2nd 3rd of 4th time we will hear an "blank" instead of chord change

Do you think there will be a solution to this problem ?
It unables to use VST sounds into arranger tracks ...


Olivier

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2018, 12:01:22 PM »
It does not depend on the time of the groove, but if you change the chord after the notes of the track are already playing.
We have an intelligent algorithm.
Sometimes vArranger will decide to re-trigger the notes and sometimes not

You need to know that changing the chord not in perfect time will not sound always good to the ear, especially if you change the chord just after the new notes are playing.
We sometimes prefer to have a little blank for few milliseconds rather than to hear 2 chords changing fast not in time

This is not a problem, but a feature.

If you think that the rules can be improved in a particular style, you can send it and I can check it

As a general advice, it is good to anticipate a little little little bit the chords changes before the time

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 06:52:46 AM »
As far as I know it has nothing to do with styles as all styles from all sources generate the same problem.
If the algorithm decide to retrigger or not the arranger tracks there is something that tells this algorithm to stop notes and note repitch them.

I m too busy to investigate further for the moment.
Globally I feel there is something wrong with chords change but I don't have enough time to make more tests.
It would be great if other users have experiment these issues and maybe find a solution ?

But if there is no solution for me it will not be a FEATURE but a MAJOR BLOCKING PROBLEM....
Imagine you play in a band with true musicians and each time we change chords outside the first time your guitarist stop playing ....  ::)

Olivier

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 11:00:30 AM »
As far as I know, it has to do with styles :) as there is many rules here that are set inside the style that will determine for every track if we re-trigger it or not. and how to rettriger
Also depending on the style brand, as every engine has it's own rules, based on how they do it (ketron yamaha etc...) , and also on the capabilities of the sound module connected, and what is actually recorded in this track etc....

It is not a question of the first time, it is a question of playing late, whatever the time we are.
Imagine all musicians have just played a new chord, but the guitarist is a bit slow and playing late. All other musicians will tell him to shut up until the next chord, but this time.. in time :)

Usually we don't feel this problem, but maybe if you are a guitarist, there is some delay added in your midi conversion system that cause you are always playing late?
What is your system, how many ms of latency it adds?

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 01:15:36 PM »
I was running on my 3D computer  Intelcore I7 16Gb RAM

So what would be the best test protocol to see really what is under this ?
What are the different monitoring system that we could use to fully understand how all the events interact ?
LatencyMon , ....
What could be VST responsability ? For instance Do you know if Kontakt has problem to manage pitching ?
I tried to play a style with hardware and send parts to VST. I didn't see any problems.

Test protocol i thought
1) start we only One VA2 bank : select 3 styles per constructor and play different styles
2) load all VA2 banks and do the operation
3) assign kontakt simple instrument per channel without VA2 banks
see if chords change with the previous styles
4) assign kontakt bigger instrument per channel => see
5) assign kontakt banks to instrument => see

try every tests with change of chords lately / at the right time / previously
try with simple Major chords , then Minor , and then complex chords ...

Olivier

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 01:18:31 PM »
No do something very simple.

Play music naturally, and when one style really bother you, send it to me, and tell me what variation you are playing, and what track is muting and should not

By the way, what is your midi instrument? what hardware do you use to play the style?

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »
Ok will do that in a couple of days.


PC / varranger installation : I made tries with 2 PC
VST : Kontakt ( not the last version. I saw they released a new update)
audio Hardware : It's true that I only used 1 audio card (Komplete audio) . But don't really see how Komplete Audio could be responsible of that

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 03:09:47 PM »
I mean your midi keyboard, or midi guitar system?

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 07:53:28 PM »
Hi
Still no time to report problems as I am always on trip ... and without any keyboards

Hardware : I got the problem with tyros / PSR + NP11.
As I write these line I wonder If the problem occurs with solton MS10 ? I am not sure
I must try because all keyboards I mention are Yamaha  ::)
But I still think it's a global problem In varranger and there are some things to look

 Olivier


Olivier

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 08:44:13 PM »
OK, so it should not be the problem.
Are you connecting them directly to USB, or using MIDI to USB adapter?

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2018, 09:24:09 PM »
Both

Tyros & PSR : with usb midi driver (yamaha)
np11 : with midi cable as it as no usb connection


Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 09:26:26 PM »
What model of midi cable?

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 09:37:58 PM »
I suppose I used various midi cables model even very basic ones ( 5 euros made in china)
What could be the difference between low-cost and expensive models ? I didn't see any difference but ....
It's true I am more concern about audio cables quality than midi cables as I was thinking there is low risk to have problems  ::)
 

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 10:11:38 PM »
The "famous" china model with the music note painted on it, is known to have problems. Some notes are missing and some are delayed... That's why...
The Roland UM-ONE is very good.
But direct usb from yamaha synth should be perfect too

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2018, 07:54:50 AM »
UP

This problem appears with VST and also with midi connexions.
It' unusable

With VASynth everything is ok

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2018, 11:38:16 AM »
Still waiting for your style causing the major problem

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2018, 11:56:22 AM »
I think ALL the styles are concerned by this problem a I already wrote you

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2018, 12:07:20 PM »
No. All styles are different, that's why I told you to send me one that really bother you the most, so I can check the vArranger decisions on this style

Offline crisoto

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2018, 12:19:16 AM »
Hi Dan,

I think what Olivier is trying to explain is what can be observed in this short video I made:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YgW7T51aD4

Here, I test chord changes with vArranger, comparing a Guitar part with vArranger Software Synthesizer vs VST (NI Kontakt).

This is what can be observed:

vArranger Software Synthesizer: The guitar sound responds to chord changes even after the midi notes were triggered, while the guitar part is holding the notes of a chord. It appears that the vArranger Software Synthesizer is able to change the sound during the Decay/Sustain stage of the sound envelope. So the sound is able to change to the new chord without te-triggering the notes when a chord changes. Even when a chord change occurs not on time, no notes are cut off. The sound simply changes to the new chord notes, but without sounding the attack stage of the guitar sound envelope. This makes quick chord changes sound more pleasing.

VST (NI Kontakt): The guitar sound does not respond to chord changes when the guitar part is holding notes. Instead, the notes are cut off. There is no change of the sound when the chord is changed when the guitar part is holding the notes. Varranger just cuts off the notes. vArranger apparently is not able to change the sound during Decay/Sustain stage of the sound envelope with VST. This makes it sound not as good as with the vArranger Software Synthesizer.

I can observe this behavior with all styles when using VST. With some styles, I do see that vArranger sometimes tries to re-trigger the notes when a Chord change occurs when notes are being held. But it is not very often and it does not sound as pleasant as with VASynth because the notes are re-triggered with the attack stage of the sound, and so it is obvious that a note is being played maybe a little out of time. But with VASynth, even when the chord changes a little out of time or a little late, the attack stage does not sound again and so it sounds more pleasant.

BTW, I hear the same chord change sound behavior as VASynth on my Yamaha PSR-S900. So apparently changing the sound in the middle of when a note is being held (without sounding the attack) is also a feature of Hardware arrangers. But unfortunately it appears not to be possible with VST in vArranger?

Can you please confirm that when using a VST, and a chord change occurs when a part is holding notes, the notes will not change in a pleasant way as with VASynth? Is there any fix for that?

Thanks

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2018, 12:34:48 AM »
VST instruments are not capable to repitch a currently playing note with some midi messages

You can send me this style to see if I can replay the notes when you change the chords. Can sound better than cut off... or not...

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2019, 08:31:20 AM »
Crisoto describe perfectly the problem.

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2019, 04:00:38 PM »
Crisoto did not answer to my message.
However I can see that he use the style PopPianoBallad from Tyros5
I was able to reproduce the problem, and it is due to changing chord every quarter note and the tempo is low (= 50)
I will change my algorithm, so the decision of re-triggering will also depend on the tempo
This is true

Offline KeyOfZ

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2019, 03:55:26 AM »
Hi
My 2 cents on VST's and Latency.
Even though Dan seems to have a Grip on this particular problem.

All VST's(Especially Vi) have some latency. But it is. Sound output latency. Not the Triggering input MIDI.
Massive has about the least latency of Most Vi's(1 to 2 ms). So It is not noticeable at all!
Most Vi's Are between 2ms and 4ms.

On the Extreme End.
'RealGuitar' Acoustic. Has around the Most latency. As much as 25ms(Also Depends how you set it up.).

So it is advisable to Know your VST/Vi. Some You would never want to play 'Live'.

I use 'Real Guitar Acoustic' a lot for recording. But I always Feed it a MIDI track. Then trim the Audio's leading Trail.

Offline Dan

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2019, 09:42:12 PM »
This will be improved in the next version, so re-triggering of notes will be done in more situations, especially with slow tempos when it was really annoying

Offline olivier71500

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Re: change chords with VST
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2019, 07:19:33 PM »
This is a great news  8)