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Recording audio live from vArranger to Cakewalk Sonar

Started by bluebeat, April 21, 2017, 06:26:55 PM

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bluebeat

Hello folks.
Can somebody help me figure out how to record live sound from vArranger to Sonar please. This is my scenario: I record arrangement to wav file inside vArranger.
I import that wav file to Sonar. I record my vocals in Sonar. Now I want to add a solo or such, using vArranger synth as sound source. I know there are some soundfont synths that work with Sonar, however, I would prefer to use vArranger for the ease of sound selection, etc.
Is there a way to route actual audio(not midi) to Sonar from vArranger? Meaning playing tracks in Sonar and recording a live track to Sonar from vArranger.

Please help.
Thank you,
Mikhail.


Lylo


bluebeat

Lylo, thank you for suggestion! I tried Virtual cable, but could not get it right. Very choppy sound with internal or external sound card (Roland Duo capture).
vArranger was around for some years now, but I can not find anything on forum that addresses this.

I can go very primitive way by physically patching internal sound card OUT to external sound card IN port with cable, but I believe there should be some smarter solution.

I am open to any other suggestions or scenarios to record live (audio) from vArranger to Sonar Daw.

Lylo

What is your computer ? With virtual audio cable you must have some latency but less with a fast computer.

You must use Hifi cable for Asio.

agaton

@bluebeat

It is no problem to route audio signal from vArranger2 to Sonar
but your Sound Engine for vArranger2 must be in Sonar (SF2 or
any VST Instrument). You  have to route Midi Out Channels in
Sonar respective Midi Channels in vArranger2. Only on this way
Style Tracks will be played from Instruments in Cakewalk and also
recorded as Midi or as Audio, that is your choice !!! Simply, Sonar
will be in this case, your VST Host and audio or/and midi recorder.

bluebeat

Thank you for tips. After several hours I narrowed to what ideally would work.

I do not mind lower quality built in card. I have surface pro 3(i5) with standard Realtec card. There is an option to "Enable Stereo Mix" on actual internal sound card driver. I am able to record any audio from computer audio players to Sonar, BUT I can not, for some reason do it from vArranger.

I believe it is happening because Wasapi exclusive mode in vArranger. This "Stereo Mix" would be perfect (and exactly what I looked for) for my needs and I believe latency would be very minimal because of native hardware and native code of the soundcard to support this feature. Can anybody shine a light if this "Stereo Mix" mode can be routed to Sonar ?

agaton

No, with WASAPI it is not  possible to play two or more
aplications (programs) in the same time, because it is not
Multiclient Audio Driver. You must have one external Audio
Interface (with Multiclient ASIO or more ASIO streams) to
be able to use more audio programs together. You can try,
this Audio Card from Surface will be occupied from the first
aplication  which is on. When you acitivate vArranger2 as
first and than Sonar, vArranger2 will be played without problem
but Sonar will be stay ohne Audio and vice versa.

You can try with one little aplication that make WASAPI from
some internal sound cards to Multiclient cards but it funct not
with all sound cards:

http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Voicemeeter/banana.htm

bluebeat

Agaton, I believe it is possible, because I am able to launch audioplayer (winamp) play track and record audio Live from Winamp to Sonar by selecting "Realtek Stereo Mix" as input in Sonar. I just can not record vArranger "Stereo Mix"
P.S. also Sonar has "Wasapi Shared mode".



Lylo

agaton, with Voicemeter you can use two vsti hosts (or daw) in asio with the same sound card (choose Voice meter as asio drivers in both). I think virtual audio cable hifi is the same thing.

Bluebeat, I think you can use boith daw (Sonar and vArranger) on your computer, in live session I use vArranger + Cantabile with Voice meter in a i3, it's ok but with lot of latency (more than 512 samples).

agaton


No bluebeat, this aplications are system aplications from
Windows !!! I wrote one Link for you and Lylo also, that is
the same aplication in two versions.

I know Lylo I wrote Link to one of this programs same like you.

bluebeat

Agaton, maybe we are talking about different things... Just to prove my point, I tried something else... I have a xkey compact keyboard. They have a stand alone windows software "Pianos" just some very basic pianos... I am able to record audio to Sonar from that app, by selecting "Stereo Mix" input in Sonar and playing that piano, in its own program which has nothing to do with Sonar using Wasapi, without noticeable latency.

I read that Dan discussed that exclusivity with someone before, but I do not believe that solution was reached.

Not sure how to solve it with vArranger.

Lylo

Hello, with Reastream it's ok for me with 1024 samples, but my soundcard is multiclients. So I don't know how to synchronize.  :o

agaton

@bluebeat


Only one way, go to Link what I wrote and download
either software what Lylo said (Voicemeter) or this
"Banana". This aplications are 4-time Multiclient and
with this ASIO Streems you will be able to play and
recording in a same time vArranger and Sonar, and if
you need some other audio software you can make it 
also. It is no other way, you must have one software
what make normal Monoclient Driver to MultiClient ASIO
Driver.

agaton

@Lylo

Reastreem isn't very good and can make many problems.
You have two Computers and you will to synchronize this !!!
The best solution is ipMIDI software. You have 5 Ethernal
Midi Ports and all funct like with LoopBe30. ipMIDI is from
the same producer and 100% stable !!!

Lylo

Hum... I just said I cannot synchronize vArranger to my daw, I record in Local broadcast.

agaton

Why than Reastreem ? This is Ethernet Synchronize Tool !!! Anywhere,
which DAW or recording program you use ? vArranger2 send Midi Clock
as Synchro signal. It means that recording software must have the
same Synchro metode as a Synchro input. To time it is very rare !!!

Lylo


Dan

I don't know... maybe record another WAV in vArranger, and import it in Sonar? :)
Or find a second computer with a sound card with digital audio out, and digital audio in in the sonar computer :)

bluebeat

Lylo and Agaton, thank you for the suggestions!! I did get Banana voicemeeter to work, but it is a lot of tweaking with audio routing given onboard soundcard, not a good workflow for me... Honestly, I spent hours trying to find a way using all kinds of virtual cables etc... Just want something simple and stable.
Even mighty Dan did not have elegant solution.

Since software solution for routing is less than perfect, maybe somebody can suggest entry/mid level soundcard interface (usb) that would support multi client natively to do just that, record from vArranger to Sonar without extra software except for native drivers.

This is my last piece of home studio puzzle that I can not solve.

would appreciate any thoughts.

thank you.

Dan

I have heard that the Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 is ASIO multi client, if both use 44100 Hz
But never tried it...

agaton

@bluebeat
In low budget level, Presonus 22VSL, and in middle level RME Babyface.
The high level is very, very big und all of that have Multiclient ASIO !!!

Lylo

bluecat, a sound card multiclient don't resolve the problem, it's ok for use Reastream seem I do but you must have a audio link between the two software, so the way is some virtaul audio cable as VB Audio or Reastream. Perhaps a good sound card give you a better latency, that's all.

agaton

#23
Lylo, Multiclient Audio Card resolve the problem (on this way
I made complete Trans Audio serie). That's the way, without
exception !!! Than... only than... with Multiclient Audio Card it
is possible, what you wrote, to make one audio link between
two programs. The second choice is one Audio Card with Audio
Matrix where you can absolutely free connect or disconnect every
Audio Input to every Audio Output (f.e. RME Babyface, UC, UCX,
FF802 or Motu new AVB serie). By this Audio Cards you don't need
any virtual audio cable to connect audio streems from both progs,
you can do it in Audio Matrix from Audio Card !!!



Lylo

Yes, you are right. I don't think with this workaround yet I have a Motu 828 and before a FA101. So it's perhaps the best way.

bluebeat

Guys, thank you for trying to help!

I called Presonus they said that Presonus 22VSL is not multiclient. Than I called NI about their Komplete 6 interface, which is advertised as multiclient, but when I explained to tech support what I want to accomplish, he said that it would not work that way.
I was able to make banana meeter  to partially work, but it does not like multiple audio recordings and after couple of audio takes, sound shutters.
there is always a way use second soundcard and route vArranger with actual cable.

My original idea is to use same soundset in vArranger and Sonar, I use SF2 bank for vArranger, but I found only Vsampler VST that loads same bank to Sonar, but it has many issues. It is outdated, buggy, 32bit and what is most important for me it does not categorize sounds by instrument type...

I guess, will keep trying to find something like Vsampler vst to make use of SF2 bank I have in Sonar, but 64bit and with instruments sorted by category.







stewbow

I tried many ways to record Varranger into Sonar, and eventually succeeded by using 2 computers

Stuart

bluebeat

Lylo, can you please guide me in my quest. It still relates to
recording to Sonar (this thread) so I decided not to start another
one.

I use vArranger for not complex backing tracks for my songs. I have used SD2 module, but then bought a SF2 bank based on the SD2 and it
plays, I would say 90%+ accurate to original. Good enough for my needs. Than I ran into issue, where I was not able to record audio
(solo) from vArranger to Sonar track live...

I decided that instead of trying to record from vArranger directly, I can find a VST player that can use my SF2 bank and use it directly in
Sonar to record solos from midi keyboard. I found a couple like Bassmidi VSTi which is able to load my SF2 bank etc, but it is very
limited. One of the main features for me is to choose instrument by type as we have in vArranger. Guitars with guitars, Pianos with pianos
etc.  I was reading your posts from past couple of years, but still did not come to conclusion on the software sampler/ soundbank.
-------------------

My first priority is have a simple interface and operation for plugin (VST?) that can be used in vArranger (without major tweaking) and
Sonar with same soundset and so the names of the patches correspond everywhere to their sounds and instruments sorted/selected by type.

My second priority is sound quality. It does not have to be 40gb files, just a good balanced set with possibility to get / upgrade
instruments.  ..with an idea, that random styles in vArranger would sound decent without a lot of tweaking (GM mode) Hopefully a price of $100-$150 or near that.

I know you talked about a few like Halion Sonic and Magix sampler couple of years ago.  Maybe you can suggest the route I should take on
this. Simplicity of use is my goal on this.

Sorry for the long write up and thank you for your time.

Lylo

If you have SD2 soundbank in sf2 so it's ok for playing them with this free plugin http://www.tx16wx.com/ or this old paid software http://www.samplelord.com/
Both haven't effects inboard except TX16W in paid version. If Tx16W seems the best choice (paid version is 29€ vs 39€) I had bests results for sf2 with Samplelord (before the vAsynth I was going in stage with it).

Halion Sonic is very good but it's not plug and play, you must modifie your midifile, Independence is the best for vArranger because it manage the CC bank very well and his sounds are really good for acoustic music but some instruments missing and you are with the same issue as Halion Sonic (this one is better with Yamaha styles because it's Yamaha who create the sounds of Halion Sonic).

In my opinion you can try TX16W with no limitation and Samplelord in demo version. It's possible to try Independence with is little sound bank  http://www.magix-audio.com/us/independence-free-sampler-software/ it's also with no limitation.

And you also can try this free plugins :  https://www.varranger.com/vforum/index.php/topic,2474.msg20512.html#msg20512

bluebeat

Lylo,
Thank you for your suggestions!
Independence sounds are super nice and it seems the software is very flexible.
Can you please guide me how to merry it to vArranger so overall styles play nice?

I am guessing, I will need MAGIX Independence Basic with 12gb library to start. I point vArranger to VST What happens then?
Is there a specific bank I have to load or how it is done? Can you please give me a scenario for basic playback please? There are many tutorials out there, but I could not find a specific for vArranger.

Thank you in advance,
Mikhail.

Lylo

Hello bluecat,

for include vsti in vArranger https://www.varranger.com/vforum/index.php/topic,2084.0.html

To configure Independence it's not simple.
Before create a 16 tracks channels project and save it as default in Independence and in startup vsti config in vA.
In preference at the left top click on "Program change"
After choose a patch for a channel, for exemple a drum for channel 10 and put "on" vol automation and pan automation
After in quick edit right click in volume and choose "curve faster 3x ot 4x"
You also can choose reverb, delay, chorus all fx you need in module page.
When all it's ok you rigth click on patch and you make "save at midi" in the pop up menu you put the number for bank and patch
If you want some number bank in soundedit as CC00 = 3 and CC32 = 0 for example, you must make this thing : Bank00*128 + Bank32 for example 03(MSB)*128 + 0(LSB) = 384

You must make all operations for all patchs you want.

bluebeat

Lylo, thank you for trying to explain.

I am like 11 year old child... I know some things about midi, but not enough.
When I am using my SF2 bank, most of styles are played more or less correct. I can change instruments in vArranger on right side and add effects.

As I understand, to use Independence I would need to program a complete bank, basically almost a completely new set of sounds for each style  on 16 track
mixer. Meaning changing a specifics of set of 128 instruments for GM?

Sorry for not intelligent questions, I admit it is a lot of new material for me. 

Lylo

Bluecat, 11, 23, or 37 years old it's impossible to understand the features in five minutes. So you must try step by step and learn some tuto on web.
For what you want I think the better is mix Independence and TX16W (or Samplelord) for play special soundfonts as live drums.
If you want program a complete bank for Independence it's possible but it's demand a lot of work but the sound is very nice.


bluebeat

Lylo,
I agree the step by step learning is needed, but learning has to start somewhere :)
Tweaking, effects all the other many things, yes it will take long time to grasp, I understand.
I just want to know if there is not too complicated way to get Independence to audition styles universally.

Meaning, I am not looking for a master sound right out of the box.
To find proper style for a song, sometimes I audition 50-70 styles and when I find the one I want, then I tweak it by changing instruments, volumes, envelopes, effects etc.  I just need a basic audition ability, so to understand what the style is about.

As I understand there is no straight General Midi (basic) mode on the Independence VST using Independence own sound library or a bank that would do basic audition in vArranger?


Thank you





lakere

Bluecat,

Why don't you look into Asio Link by O Deus Audio?    https://o-deus-audio.com.au/ASIOLink

I use it for a multi-client ASIO setup in my tablet, but it also allows audio routing between two hosts.    Quite feature rich, and for me it works better than Voicemeeter and also less complicated.    It says on their website;

"With ASIO Link you can
Send DAW ASIO output to screen casting software
Use multiple ASIO applications at the same time with multi-client mode
Send DAW ASIO output to input of another DAW
Listen to windows audio while running your DAW with ASIO
Use a 32bit ASIO driver from 64bit applications with multi-client mode
Route audio anywhere at all
!"

I have an ICA4+ (iConnectivity) which allows me to run multiple VST hosts but I also wanted an option to do the same with the miminum hardware and physical cables.   

bluebeat

Lakere, thank you. Yes, I tried that program. It works, but I have decided to use VST and TX16W for the reason that it will route better  as "natve" plugin to Sonar and no need to switch drivers all the time.

I took few hours yesterday per Lylo suggestion and I believe I figured out my workflow. I can do rough audition of style with SF2 bank which is tuned well and then audion separate tracks with better Independence VST in vArranger jand then use these two items (bank and VST) in Sonar to record separate tracks.


Lylo, since you use Independence, can you please tell me if there is a way to make screen of VST larger? When I open Independence as stand alone, it is good size, when as VST it is very small, not scaleable to larger size.... How it is in your system, is it also small, or it has something to do with my resolution?

Thank you.

Lylo

Hello bluecat, it's strange because I never see this, the interface is always the same size for me.

bluebeat

Lylo, can you please look at two photos here.
It is not normal size right?

Lylo


bluebeat

Lylo, yes, it is same screen.
When lunched as stand alone program, size ok.
When as VST plugin 1/2 size and no option to make it larger. Very tiny text/control.

I assume it is not like that on your computer?

Lylo

No, it's the same size I test this afternoon, it"s ok.

bluebeat