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Some questions

Started by MusiMa, March 08, 2016, 07:38:24 AM

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MusiMa

Hello,

I find the software very fascinating and consider using them for use on stage. The manual I've already read, but some questions remain unanswered.

If I understand correctly, every song let separately save with all its settings (Sounds, Style, Transpose, Split Point etc.) without any limit how much i need.

Is it possible to switch these stored songs with a MIDI command (Program Change)?

If I understood correctly, I can also assign a text to each song. What happens when the notes are longer than one page?

Can vArranger switch the programs of my Vocalist?

For help and advice I am grateful.

Regards

Lylo

Hello,

you can change the songs with a midi controller by CC or with the keyboard of the computer or directly with a touch screen.
If the text is very long and need many pages you can assign a controller for change the page.

BjayG

Hi,

>If I understand correctly, every song let separately save with all its settings (Sounds, Style, Transpose, Split Point etc.) without any limit how much i need.

It depends on what you want - but as far as I know you cannot save everything you want in song mode - see the thread here where there was a big argument:-

http://www.varranger.com/vforum/index.php/topic,2009.msg19261.html#msg19261

As far as I know these haven't been resolved - but they may have been.  If so nobody has said (but then there never was a response from Dan on the topic)

Good luck
Barry

BjayG

PS I should have also said that the simulated performance mode I described in great detail in that thread no longer works at all because there is an audible delay between the sections.

Barry

MusiMa

Thanks for the answers.

I am now a bit confused. :o I hope, I have misunderstood something now. I've now here al list, which parameters I would like saved. Maybe someone knows what it is actually stored in the Song mode.

- Selected Style / MP3 / Midi File
- tempo
- Sounds left
- Sounds right
- Volume of the individual sounds and Parts
- Panorama
- Sync Start
- Which intro starts
- Which variation begins
- Effect sends
- Used effect
- Split point

These are the important parameters that I need to switch quickly if I want to work properly on stage. Because there is no time between songs, quickly change any other parameters.

Regards

Lylo

- Sync Start
- Split point

are missing

- Used effect

is in development

MusiMa

Thanks for the information. That sounds not so bad. The missing SplitPoint maybe I can get over. Everything else has already made me curious.

One last question:
Which CC must be sent to open the songs? (NRPN MSB and LSB?)

Lylo

You can ask the missing split point, me to I want this fonction in the save.
You can use any CC you want, me I use the keys of my computer.

BjayG

Again - unless its changed - it does not save the right sound type and levels.  So if you set up Right1, 2, 3 etc levels and sounds then these are not restored when you load the song - they are cleared back to a default value.    To get a balance of sounds you always have to create a user voice (sound).     So if during a song you want, for example, a piano at 50% and strings at 50% for one section then it is necessary to save this combination as a user voice; and for the next section you want the piano at 10% and the strings at 80% then you have to create a second user voice - and so on, and so on etc etc.   The so called advantage is that these voices are then available in any other songs you create.  The disadvantage is that if you are fussy about getting the balance right and you create lots of  combination of sounds then the number of user voices can get extremely big and unwieldy.   If on the other had you are happy to work with just a few favorite sound combinations  - which surprisingly a lot of people do then apparently then its not a problem.  I think it is very poor  - but lots of other people think the VA way of working is perfect.   So who am I to say who is right or wrong.

To clarify - when I use the term voice above - I mean two or more  sounds in Right 1, 2, 3 etc layered together at different levels and saved as a single user sound.

Barry

Lylo

I don't know what's the problem, if you want differents levels in right hand you move the faders with the controllers.
And you can navigate in the patchs at the right side.

MusiMa

@ BjayG

So what is the solution?  ???

If I can save User Voices in the song, I have no problem. Then several voices for a song would be conceivable. If every time I switch an song, I must adjust Voices, the vArranger-Software would be useless for me.

@all
The second unsolved problem is switching Songs with MIDI Commands. Every Performance/Registration/Songbook entry in an hardware arranger can be switched from external hardware by using Congtrol Change (NRPN, MSB, LSB) or Bank Select / Program Change. What about vArranger? I don't want to switch it with a key from the computer.

How about the so called User Voices? Are they switchable externally, maybe like up and down keys from masterkeyboard with a midi command?

Using the vArranger window for switching all parameters separatly befor playing a song is unthinkable. In my current solution, I look most of the night not to the displays of the keyboards, because the switching of all song parameters happens by calling the lyrics and notes on the laptop (One click!  8) ).

I wonder if switching on program window would be the only solution, how all the other users work on stage.  :-[


nikola

If Dan ad a Song Playlist pae will be a good solution for this Funktion and this is very important for Live work at a Gig for everyone.

BjayG

@ BjayG

So what is the solution?  ???

If I can save User Voices in the song, I have no problem. Then several voices for a song would be conceivable. If every time I switch an song, I must adjust Voices, the vArranger-Software would be useless for me.


There may not be one for you.   Yes - of course you can save user voices for a song and restore them when you reload the song.   I'm merely saying that you always have to save a user voice if you just  want to load a song and start playing  (unless you want to adjust it manually with midi faders at the start of every song which I think Lylo is saying).    If you want to do it automatically - and you are fussy about the the balance of voices in a user voice then the list of user voices could get very long indeed because it is available in every song [eg. Piano90%+ Strings10%, Piano60%+ Strings20%, Piano40%+ Strings50%,  Piano10%+ Strings50%, Piano90%+ Strings10%+Oboe80% etc etc).   The other thing I am saying is that the Right1, 2,3 4 etc always get cleared to a default empty setting (i.e. Right 1=a standard sound at full volume, the rest cleared [I'm away from vA so trying to remember so may be a bit wrong])  when you load a new song so you need to save it as a user voice in advance and then it will get set up correctly.  I, and others, think this is a real pain - but another group think we are being totally unreasonable.   At the end of the day - it will work - but not how you would necessarily imagine.   NOTE: Just for clarification on re-reading the above:  you do not have to create a user voice to use one of the standard sounds like a Piano or a Guitar - its only necessary if you want to combine sounds.   However, the same way of working will apply.

A bigger issue for me - and I have never been able to solve it [and I really would like to know the solution if anyone can tell me] - is how you balance the voices between style sections  (i.e. Main1 to Main2 to Main3 to Main4)  as I have never found a way of achieving this without adjusting it manually or creating a user voice.   You can set vA to change the sound automatically when you change the style section - but there appears no way that I know of of actually changing the volume of that sound for each of the different sections.   So as an example - if you have a quiet standard piano voice for the right hand when playing MAIN1 at the beginning - and then at the end of the song at MAIN4 you then want to go back to the same piano voice - then you cannot (that I know of ) adjust the volume of the piano for each of the 2 sections.  So if you cannot adjust the relative volume then how do you stop the piano drowning out the backing in MAIN1,   or being drowned out by the backing in MAIN4.    As I say - I would love to know the answer if anyone has it - and NO its not that you adjust the volume with a midi controller manually.    A solution might be that you save yet another user voice for a single Piano at say 10% for MAIN1 and another at 80% for the Piano at Main4.  But then we are back to the same problem of the total user voice list growing ever larger. 

This is one of the reasons a group of us wanted registration memory - but it looks like it will never happen and I have given up asking you will be pleased to learn.

Personally - to solve all these questions about can it do this?, can it do that? - then I feel there should be a demo version of this program so people can try it out.  As its only when you have had it for a few months that some of the limitations begin to show.  This is not at all intended as a criticism - but this is a complex program which requires a lot more than the money back period to understand.    And sorry - demo does not equal crack if its done properly or necessarily require a lot of extra work.  Lets be honest 350 Euros is not at all cheap (despite some people trying  to convince themselves [or more likely their wives] that it is) - and people ought to be able  to try it out before they buy as a result.

Barry

Lylo

But with hardware you have also some limitation and you can't hope any solution.

BjayG

> But with hardware you have also some limitation and you can't hope any solution.

Lylo - don't get me started ....   ;)    What you say is very true - but its not hardware and we are told that this is the great advantage of vA over hardware arrangers - it can be changed to do anything.   [ You can, of course, usually exchange/sell hardware arrangers for the latest model which will do it all (except they don't as we all know - but they do at least make regular incremental progress and sometimes large leaps)].

In my experience vA changes really don't seem to happen in a reasonable time - to the point I just take whats given e.g. Its now over 2 years since I was told that the split point would be savable and nearly 4 years since we were told that there would be a style editor .     Have you ever wondered why so many people keep asking for the latest version in the beta thread if its so complete already.   

Barry 

Lylo

Yes you have rigth but... you forget than vArranger work in full audio now and it isn't necessary to buy a SD2 Ketron, perhaps for you it's not a progress but you can't say that vArranger progress slowly, the last two years are revolution.
But I'm ok with you for some missings features, your exemple is good, why we cannot save the split point ? I never understand because is a really good feature.
But for Style maker I think you must understand is a great but difficult function to build, is a powerful software same all vArranger I think and perhaps the development need a more efficient vArranger before (don't forget vArranger read 4 styles formats).   

Sorry for my poor english. :)

MusiMa

Thanks to all for the detailed explanations. Slowly I understand how vArranger works. Still I'm impressed by the possibilities.  :D

You're right Lylo, Styles to play from 4 manufacturers Arranger is a great thing. That fascinates me about this concept.

But as BjayG said before 350 € are a lot of money. If this software opens up my work on stage new opportunities, I will gladly pay more. But if I find that the work on stage more elaborate, the investment was in vain. In this respect a demo version would be good to find out if it is worth buying.  :(

In this regard, I wrote Dan already a mail after he had offered me to answer open questions before buying. The first request remained unanswered. So I try it again today. Should I get an answer, I'll tell you.

Now only remains the question of whether you can switch songs externally with MIDI Commands. I'm afraid, there are no options. In everything I read so far, this has never been an issue.

Has any one idea?

Thanks so much for all your help!

Lylo

For me vArranger is ok on stage, with it I make over 400 gigs.  8)

MusiMa

Lylo, please let me know how you work on stage?

What do you use for hardware and how you organize your songs?

MusiMa

I hope I have found the solution.  ::)

In a video (unfortunately probably in Spanish, my native language is German  ;D ) I have found under OPTIONS the CONTROLLER window. Unfortunately, I could not understand what the author said, but in the pictures it seemed to work. There was the category Songs / Groups / . If I have understood correctly, the Midi Commands you can manage and define themselves as external control. Can anyone confirm? OR did I misunderstood something?

If this really works, I'm the next vArranger User  ;D  8)

haweneu

Hi MusiMa,
i am also from Germany near Trier,
use Varranger for more then a year and you can send me a Message and then i send you my phone number. Then we can talk about Varranger 2 in german.


BjayG


Yes you have rigth but... you forget than vArranger work in full audio now and it isn't necessary to buy a SD2 Ketron, perhaps for you it's not a progress but you can't say that vArranger progress slowly, the last two years are revolution.
But I'm ok with you for some missings features, your exemple is good, why we cannot save the split point ? I never understand because is a really good feature.
But for Style maker I think you must understand is a great but difficult function to build, is a powerful software same all vArranger I think and perhaps the development need a more efficient vArranger before (don't forget vArranger read 4 styles formats).   

Sorry for my poor english. :)

Hey Lylo - we agree - thats progress   :)  - and I think your English is really good - do not doubt it.   My ancestors were French - but my French speaking is not good at all.

Anyway - what you say about the so called latest developments is correct.   Its not progress for me as I have a working solution - but therein lies the problem.   It just feels to me that all the development resource is going into work that results in new sales - and those people who already have it are being somewhat ignored.  Some of the niggling problems (like not being able to save the split point and many others) never seem to get resolved.  There are several things that really need to be done to get this program as good as a hardware arranger- such as registration menus, style auditioners (i.e. how do you find the right style from 100,000 styles - as you say there are 4 style types); style editors; style creators [from midi-files]; one touch settings; music finders etc. etc.     But I really cannot see them ever happening.  If these were present vA would sell itself - and Dan could even give up the day job.

Barry


Dan

Hello MusiMa,

Sorry for the late answer. A lot of things here. Your main question is how to change sounds and styles in vArranger from a midi controller for fast and easy changes in live gig situation.

Basically, we have a SAVE SOUND button, when you can save a full right hand sound, including a lot of things for the 5 layers, volumes, pan, fx sends, ADSR, key/vel range, etc...........

You can create an infinite number of those " SOUNDS "


Then you can drag & drop up to 20 of those sounds into the " MY SOUNDS " bar.  This will allow you to select your 20 favorite sounds for each style. You can assign 20 midi controllers to change this.

(Bjay, there is a LINK button, on top of the My sounds, where you can go from MY SOUNDS 1 2 3 4 when you change the variation 1 2 3 4)


There is another button   SAVE SONG,    this will also save a lot of things, including the style mixing and the SOUND you select for the right hand and the left hand


The way to select the style by midi is a bit old school, and mimic how hardware arranger are working.  Folder select, Style/Song selection button 1 to 10, Page + / Page -

This is the part that really benefit from a touch screen.


There is another way to change songs with the search feature.  You write the first letter of the song, and you find it immediately.


One user from Switzerland (tthoms) has created a software to manage all his vArranger songs and load them from the outside.

What is your idea ? to have 200 midi buttons for all your songs?  :) What controller will you use to load sounds and songs?

There is still a lot of good ideas that will be added in future new versions for free

Lylo

QuoteOne user from Switzerland (tthoms) has created a software to manage all his vArranger songs and load them from the outside.

Where is this software ?

Dan

It is for his private use. I just asked him to read here

Lylo

Ok, I contact him with mp, thanls.  :)

MusiMa

#26
@ Dan
Thanks for your Response. But:

So many words and no answer to the last question. :(

First of all: I do not play MIDI files, but exclusively Styles, sometimes only voices without drum or bass tracks.

I play in several different projects in very different locations. In addition, the events vary greatly, thus I never play the same repertoire. The selection of titles is always dependent on the present audience.
Therefore I work the whole night with setlists, I quickly make during the evening in the breaks and so I directly react to the audience. By setlists I can quickly find the title without much interruption.

Here to closer understanding my way of working:

I use for every song on the keyboards an own performance / Registration / SongBook entry, because no song sounds like the other and I always adapting the title to reflect the sounds. In a seperate software for lyrics and notes I create the mentioned setlists.  With each document I call up I send a number of midi commands (NRPN, MSB LSB Prog Ch ...) that switches all the keyboards and Vocalist. For each project, I have a separate folder with notes and texts, so I can only see the lyrics and chords or notes which are really relevant. The hardware is always the same and yet I'm fast.

That what you call "Old school" is in result faster than the cumbersome typing on the touch screen. Moreover, I do not want to explain to the audience why I use the search engine and the typing needs time. During my sets I am ready in 2 seconds for next song, any song, any time – with "old school". And always without danger, taping the incorrect title, to be in the wrong folder, not to find the title by writing errors. And you? How fast are you?  ;)

Creating the next setlist in the software needs 3 minutes. Is your software able to handle that?  ::)

My notes / lyrics over more then one sheet scrolls automatically depending on the length of the song sometimes whithin short stops if I need time for solos or repeats. No manual typing. What about vArranger?  8)

I hope now is clear why I want external control. I want to use vArranger, but must compensate the missing Features in any way.

Back to my last question, hoping I get an answer:

Can I switch songs externally with MIDI Commands?

Or the other way around: Is there a feature to quickly create setlists with several titles that are selected one for one? I hope it is understandable what I intend.

Regards

Lylo

Hello MusiMa, varranger a good function, the song chord.With this you can enter the firts chords of your song (or the entire song but if you like play arranger...) and when you go to the next song you haven't need 2 seconds, it's instantanly and your new song begin in the right tone, with the right intro and your sheet music in screen and the correct sound on the keyboard. :)

MusiMa

Hello Lylo,

yes I agree with you. You're right, the Chord function is really a great thing. Unfortunately, it does not solve my problem. My problem is that I (if I understand correctly now that) unfortunately only by repeatedly tapping on the touch screen I get my next song. Or by presorted folders (one song follows the other), but if from evening to evening, the title and / or ranked are constantly changing at night, this is also no help.

Too bad that no one can / wants answer my question switching songs with MIDI commands. How ever it is old school or not.

I am still looking for a solution to quickly create setlists during the event to access the songs uncomplicated. I do not want any of the 60 or 80 songs that I need at evening select individually from the whole repertoire.

Or if it does not work, a quick solution calling up songs. All the previously mentioned ways are realy good when I play at home for me, but too burdensome and slow for me at stage. For others it may work.

Maybe I put the wrong demands on the software. When I have the change, colleagues to see live on stage, I notice again and again how much some of them look at the display switching songs, tap here, write there. They also moderating the next song and don't look one time at the audience. The audience waits patiently. I press a button once (the spacebar on Laptop),  everything switch up by using a prepared Midi command in the notes / chords (including Chords, Vocalist, the keyboards), a few words to the audience and "the show goes on".

Regards

Lylo

#29
Hello, I try to change the song with program change, it's possible but only for the ten songs at the left, so you have program 1 for the firts button, program two for the second etc. after you link a controler for the arrows to move the column to the ten buttons in other column.
But why use program change ? The computer keyboard have a lot of button (102) and it's easy to assign it.
You said " I do not want any of the 60 or 80 songs that I need at evening select individually from the whole repertoire." before the gig you can go in windows explorer and make a special folder and move the 60/80 songs inside.
It's how I proceed, I'm ok with you for say it's not the Graal but I hope Dan create a system playlist. Actualy it's not perfect and need some work. For me, sometime hard work, for example when I organise a folder as the 31th december, for put the song in order we must attribuate a number before title "(00)Summertime, (01)Blue moon, (03)Besame mucho etc" but after I can use a footswitch and jump song by song with no cut (sometime with a little latence because the sound load).     

But you can ask the function playlist to Dan, if it's for you very important and if you don't buy the software if missing, when the feature is include in vArranger you can put the money on the table.  :) 

MusiMa

Hi Lylo,

I am very grateful that you help me to find a solution to my problem. The folder solution is a variant that works if I know in advance what I want to play. It may really work for many users. To me that's a problem because I only trying to decide the choice of songs when I notice how the audience responds to certain music genres.

If I have understood you correctly, I can externally only things control that exist as a separate button on the sreen. To speak with Dan's words: This is a bit "old school".

The fundamental problem remains, today I click once on the space bar, if I want to use vArranger I have to have to accept it that once I click to switch the notes/lyrics, and a few times to find and select the next song, (every song) at another screen. This is extremely inconvenient, complex and carries the risk of being wrong turn. This means for me a step forward (musical possibilities) and simultaneously a step back (usability).

All these restrictions are me now aware, I was hoping to find a "New School" solution that I can work as well on as with my "Old School" solution.

I'm afraid I have to accept that there is no practical solution to my problem at the moment. Many many thanks for the many advices and tips. I will continue to think about how I can solve the problem.

Maybe I or someone on the forum has a solution.

Regards

Lylo

#31
Hello, tomorrow I will try to make a video for you, it's more simple than explanations with bad english. ;)

Dan

MusiMa,

What program do you want to use to send the program change?

This is a secret, but I am about to release a new version with the Playlist feature, allowing to create many list of songs :)

nikola

#33
Hello Dan

"MusiMa,

What program do you want to use to send the program change?

This is a secret, but I am about to release a new version with the Playlist feature, allowing to create many list of songs :)"

I have Tyros2 (old school key :))) and if you put song list I can use 8Registrations buttons to change a song on vA2.
I have two Bank buttons - and + allso where each Bank have 8 Regs. On Tyros 2 can I store 500Folders and 500*8=4000 Songs on vA2. It will be good to be assignable cc on every song on vArranger 2 f.e. Song1-MSB=1 LSB=0 PC=1, Song2-MSB=1 LSB=0 PC=2 and so on.
With "SongBook" app on iPAD will be allso a way but for this to work we need to Assign each Song from vA2 with MSB LSB PC.

Regards
Nikola

MusiMa

Hello Dan,

Thank you that you want to program the feature of playlists. My current software for lyrics and sheet music comes from Switzerland and is called songbook (www.bit-software.ch). It is a shareware, for a small fee will all features unlocked. The software processes BMP, JPG, PDF and more.

It has the following features:
MIDI filter and Port Mapper
Karaoke function
MIDI Player
Audio File Player
Creating setlists
Playing Jingles
Calendar with memo function (for events)
etc.

Visually looks the software as 20 years ago Windows software but it works perfectly. It can also be started from a USB stick and has low demands on the technology.
I have the software already tested on various versions: Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10. I never had problems. Each song can be assigned to MIDI messages, which are then sent as soon as the song is called up.

Thanks again.
Regards

MusiMa

@Dan
Is there already a date for when the update will be released with the playlist feature? That would be a big step, so that the software not only for the user at home but also for professional users is interesting. That would be for some certainly an argument to buy.
Are there plans in the very limited possibility of control by MIDI (or missing control of song changing)?

@ Lylo
Is there already a Video of which you spoke?

Regards

Lylo

Hello MusiMa, I'm sorry but I have a lot of work and no time for the video but I find an old video in my folders, no sound but you can see the speed for change songs.


MusiMa

Ok if you use a pre-determined order, it works. How fast will you be when the 5th title to play first? How fast are you if you wish to play a title which is not in the list, without the possibility of a setlist, which can be created quickly from all songs that are available? I say no.

I'm very grateful for your help finding a solution, we can still discuss forever, but without the features that allow a really fast and comfortable operation, it is and remains for me a software for hobby at home. The basis is great, vA2 is on the right way. I look hopeful for the future, when vA2 becomes a professional tool with option saving song splitpoints, right hand voices, external switching, setlists ...

Regards

Lylo

#38
Quote from: MusiMa on March 17, 2016, 11:24:58 AM
it is and remains for me a software for hobby at home.

Lol !!  ;D




Dan

Today, you have 10 buttons for songs, so you can switch 10 songs by midi. Then you have page + / page -, and select another folder by midi.


Today, you can already create a list easily :

All your songs are already situated in the vArranger SONG folders, and are visible in the main screen


1) Search a song by writing the first letters, or by selecting the songs on screen

2) right clic on the song , and COPY TO ....  MY NEW SETLIST (or any name)

3) Do the same for all the song you need.  Here is it....

The new playlist will allow you to do the same, without need to copy (and duplicate) the songs. Just link to them

There will probably be a NEXT SONG of the playlist control by midi


MusiMa

@ Dan

Many thanks for the note and the detailed description, I feel like to try that.

@ Lylo

That's why I wrote: for me.  ;)

If you're satisfied with the possibilities offered by the software and you get used to the operation, then it is ok. Then I'm happy for you.
;D

This does not mean that all others must also be as satisfied as you. I try to find my own way of use. Therefor I look for all options.

Regards

Lylo

Yes MusiMa, I understand but I only say "you are wrong to think this" ;)   ;D

But the new future feature is a better way.  :)

MusiMa

It would still be very nice if there were the option,  to switch songs by MIDI, so that I can continue to work in the wrong way.  ;D :P

Please  ;)

haweneu

Hi,
i want to Search a song by writing the first letters ( as dan described here) on my keyboard if i play with VA2. Selecting the songs on screen works with mouse and Touch.
But if i write on my pc keyboard the first letters, nothing happens!


magali

 :o   Ca marche parfaitement bien chez moi  . Si rien ne se passe chez toi ,il y a effectivement un bug .Peut être que quelqu'un à déja été confronté à ce problème

haweneu

Hi Magali,
thank you. I will wait for some other answers!

Dan

You need to click on the SEARCH zone of vArranger, or assign a key in CONTROLLERS to select the search zone

Then you can search by pc key...

haweneu

Hi,
thanks dan.
Tomorrow i will test it.

Are there some news about SD1000 effect settings with save and load song? I miss this realy for special effects like ping pong delay and guitar for example or special distortion.

Dan

Still no news for the SD1000 FX saving, I am sorry.... Will try to think about it together when I will do the VST FX saving too


For now, ......

Just to let you know that the new PLAYLIST feature is ready



And it is really cool feature to group a list of songs together and chain them very fast  :)