Yes ! SD 1000 can get out of tune !!

[mrgentleman]

Just give you guys and girls an update. Played and tested Ketron SD 1000 hard last weekend and it seems to get out of pitch and tune when you
lets say, play an style (any) or midi file (any) and use for example (input) channel 16 to play your melody together with SD 1000 - on your keyboard
- all this simultaneously ofcourse - and then the SD 1000 can get crazy. It's more frequent when choosing heavier midi songs than when using, just styles.
Its both midi port and USB port connecting to the Ketron SD 1000.

For my part, I do not play usually this way - instead I use my master keyboard for additional toppings and fills. This management avoids the port problem
for the time being.

/ Michael

[agaton]

Do You make Update to 1.1 on SD1000 ?

[mrgentleman]

Yes !
I did.....
/ M

[Dan]

Can you try to update it again? Maybe the update was not successful?
Can you post the style so we can try it too.
What is your midi keyboard? midi interface?

We want to reproduce, to understand...

[mrgentleman]

OK ! Dan !

Try this !

Play an heavy midifile via vArranger and use for example your keyboard and play along on channel 16 via USB back to the SD 1000 modul, with some wheel and pitch movements on
your side and see if you can force the SD 1000 to getting weird.......
You can download this midis to try !!
Don't forget to cancel midi ch 16 for outgoing from midifile (song) -  some songs are naturally using all channels (1-16) and thats maybe to much to demand from the Sd 1000, if you play your stuff at the same time and the midisong plays on the same channel simultaneously.....

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i8awwjzfilhi2sf/AACA5xhddNHIcyjUmXCxO7vSa?dl=0

/ M
Midi Master keyboard: Korg KROME
Midi interface: M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2

[jan1kow]

If you stop midi file before end of song the controllers and not reseting or are staying in the Sd100 memeory .
Does the VArranger panic button not clear any out of tune pitch wheels etc.
jon

[agaton]

vArranger2 button "Panic" sends Reset Midi Commands.

[cirerenrut]

I have been playing my Keytron SD 1000 with vArranger and big band midi files ranging from 75k-125k and the pitch has never altered. I know this does not help your predicament Michael but it does show that an up dated SD 1000 and vArranger can be stable mates with no problems, ( at least non that I've found ).

Eric

[mrgentleman]

Mmm...
Updated the modul once more !! AND !

It seems to me that my modul is somewhat unstable and I have to replace it - WHAT A MISERY !! I just played hundreds of
midifiles in a row and with no other interference with my mother keyboard (with resets in the end of every single song) and
to my surprise, the module was / is incredibly weird and unstable - so my conclusion is that the module has a malfunction
somewhere, somewhat, somehow.

I have already informed "Thomann" and they are ready for a change - thank you all, for the support and answers, so that I could
comprehend that the fault was not on my side.....But I love the outcomming sounds from the Ketron SD 1000 though, and think it's very, very
jolly - especially when you consider the low price.....
/ Michael

[Dan]

You updated your module, and then what ?

What is unstable now ?

Can you try to play the midifiles outside vArranger, with a midifile software like VanBasco ? (vArranger adds some sysex and NRPN specially for the SD1000)

If there is a bug in the SD1000, I don't think replacing it will change anything, so it's better to find the bug.


Another user told me today about the pitch problem on his SD1000 from time to time. So we need to find the problem....

[agaton]

I wrote about this big problem with Update 1.1. in one another thread. I have two of SD1000,
and one of them was in Ver. 1.0, another on 1.1. On the SD1000 without Update, is all OK,
but realy all OK, on any DAW, also on vArranger2. No problems with polyphony, no problems
with out of tune etc....
On SD1000 with Update 1.1 is all of that very, very problematic. I try this SD1000
on all of DAWs what I have, and also on vArranger2. Always the same problems. This is
definitely no problem or BUG of vArranger2, but very big Bug from Update 1.1 of SD1000.

vArranger2 is the best music software what I used in my very long career as musician, sound
designer, Style and Sound maker by Yamaha Europe and last but not least, as toningenieur. It is
100% stable and intuitive and as automatic accompaniment much more better and with more very
usable functions as any other hardware arrangeur. vArranger2 can not be reason for all this problems
of SD1000. Never !!!
The problem is only Ketron SD1000, and worsest thing is, that you can't make Restore on Ver. 1.0. It is
no joke, I am very serios,  after all of this tests, my advice is: definitely no go on 1.1 Update, Ketron made
big mistake with this Update 1.1. Only what on Ver. 1.1 is better, is transition between chords, because of
implementation of Midi #CC84 to soft "slide" between chords  !!!

Ketron is unserios with their support. I try to contact them but no result !!! The Update 1.1 for
SD1000 is only one example. One another, is their Instrument Definition file for SD1000. It was totaly
wrong !!! I had prepared that, and now it works. Our member mrgentleman has downloaded
my prepared Instrument Definition file (which Dan suggested him) and since that time, he has no
problems with change of Sound Programs from SD1000. But, at the end, it must be declared,
Ketron SD1000 has amazing sound, on an average more better than top workstations from other
producer. We hope that Ketron will very soon, make one Update for SD1000 that fix all this Bugs.

[jds]

I wrote about this big problem with Update 1.1. in one another thread. I have two of SD1000,
and one of them was in Ver. 1.0, another on 1.1. On the SD1000 without Update, is all OK,
but realy all OK, on any DAW, also on vArranger2. No problems with polyphony, no problems
with out of tune etc....
On SD1000 with Update 1.1 is all of that very, very problematic. I try this SD1000
on all of DAWs what I have, and also on vArranger2. Always the same problems. This is
definitely no problem or BUG of vArranger2, but very big Bug from Update 1.1 of SD1000.

vArranger2 is the best music software what I used in my very long career as musician, sound
designer, Style and Sound maker by Yamaha Europe and last but not least, as toningenieur. It is
100% stable and intuitive and as automatic accompaniment much more better and with more very
usable functions as any other hardware arrangeur. vArranger2 can not be reason for all this problems
of SD1000. Never !!!
The problem is only Ketron SD1000, and worsest thing is, that you can't make Restore on Ver. 1.0. It is
no joke, I am very serios,  after all of this tests, my advice is: definitely no go on 1.1 Update, Ketron made
big mistake with this Update 1.1. Only what on Ver. 1.1 is better, is transition between chords, because of
implementation of Midi #CC84 to soft "slide" between chords  !!!

Ketron is unserios with their support. I try to contact them but no result !!! The Update 1.1 for
SD1000 is only one example. One another, is their Instrument Definition file for SD1000. It was totaly
wrong !!! I had prepared that, and now it works. Our member mrgentleman has downloaded
my prepared Instrument Definition file (which Dan suggested him) and since that time, he has no
problems with change of Sound Programs from SD1000. But, at the end, it must be declared,
Ketron SD1000 has amazing sound, on an average more better than top workstations from other
producer. We hope that Ketron will very soon, make one Update for SD1000 that fix all this Bugs.

Good to know. I'm completely new to vArranger. I got an SD1000 last week and started testing. First I installed the 1.1 update, then I started playing using a MIDI accordion. The results were very disappointing. On the right hand (melody) when playing a C, I hear a CIS. On the left hand (bass & chords) I must have to play on the E row to be in the right tonality to the right hand. That's absurd.
I tried KONTAKT 5 and everything worked fine. So I thought, first I would have to modify something on the vArranger/SD1000 setup.
(Un)fortunately I'm three days away from vacation and have no time to do more tests. Furthermore, I don't want to spend to much time in setup things, I want to come home and play without trouble (I do IT business and try to avoid bits & bytes issues in my leisure time). So I decided to send the SD1000 back and to try a MidjPro after all when back in town.
After going through this thread I suppose that my SD1000 could be the root of the problem ... Unfortunately I have no other HW to test with vArranger so that I can't find out what the problem is.

Is this a setup or hardware problem?

Btw: when playing WITH styles, the styles volume goes down when pressing any button on the bass side (left accordion side). Without styles there is no volume decrease.
The next issue I have is with voices. I used only ACCORDION/TANGO but sometimes a piano is to hear. Äh?

Is someone else playing MIDI accordion and experiencing such kind of problems?

[agaton]

I am playing Roland FR3X with vArranger2. No problems hier. Define Midi in
as Accordion in Midi Ports Select in vArranger2 and it must be all OK. I think guilty
is either your OS (Windows) or this MidjPro. Can You become SD1000 one
time more ? But this time make no Update. I can record some demo for you
that you hear how amazing are Styles from vArranger Played from SD1000
naturaly without Update !!! You are giving much more money for nothing !!!
The Sound Chip of SD1000 is the almost same like in MidijPro, and you not need
functions of MidijPro, you have in vArranger2 the same functions and some more
better as in MidijPro. The vArranger2 is very, very complex software, and very, very
powerfull and stable !!! I am shure you haven't any one problem from vArranger2,
and its Setup, and I am also shure that SD1000 Update 1.1 is root of the problem !!!
When vArranger2 worked fine with Kontakt 5, it is more than shure that SD1000
make all problems. I am working on one very big Sample Content of Kontakt 5
(about 100GB) and this is my main Sound Engine with 512 Sound Programs on
4 Midi Ports of Kontakt 5. Each of this Midi Ports has 16 Program Banks with 128
Sound Programs. So I can send MSB, LSB and PCG to select any one Sound Program
and other Midi Controllers to controling Level, Panorama, Effects... etc...
SD1000 is only test modul for checking Styles.



I can help you with your Midi Accordíon and vArranger2 but I need some
information of your Midi accordion. Which model, which Midi Channels are
used... etc...

Hier is one short demo of SD1000 (without update 1.1) with Country Fox Style.
I have only mixed the original Style, made Compressor, EQ and Ambient Effects
on my software mixer (all Live).
Country Fox from SD1000

[cirerenrut]

When I ordered my SD 1000 Dan told me to update it to ver. 1.1 presumably knowing that ver.1.0 could give problems. The first thing I did when I received the SD 1000 was to update the sound module before I tried it, since then I have used the module on the following without any problems.

vArrange2
Band in a box 2015
Power tracks
Presonus 2.6
MOTU  Digital Performer
Sonar x3
My input device is CME UF50 controller and the SD 1000 is coupled via usb to my desk top HP Pavilion. If one of you gentlemen can tell me how to get the SD 1000 to behave in a strange way, I will try and replicate it because I am intrigued to find out what is going on.

Eric 

[agaton]

It is no way to make SD1000 with Update 1.1 to behave strange way.
I don't know what is the problem by SD1000. Maybe is the Bug by
some series of SD1000. My SD1000 what I update, has a problem
with poliphony on Styles with more instruments, and also the Bug
with Portamento sounds on right side when more than one sound is
Mono and Portamento defined. It is not only in vArranger2, it is in
all DAWs what I tested. The same things, play SD1000 without 1.1
Update without any problems !!! 

I work also with good hardware:
RME Fireface 802
Presonus 1818VSL

... and software
vArranger2 last update (Beta 13)
Studio One 2 Professional last update
Sonar X3
Cubase 7.5

...but problems with updated SD1000 are present.

What is the Serial Number of your SD1000 ? Maybe can we seen
what of SD1000 series are affected !!!

[cirerenrut]

The serial number of my SD 1000 is :- B9AA10531P.

[mrgentleman]

It seems to me that - It's - certainly not vArranger that cause the SD 1000 pitch, scale or weird behavior in any way.......
Exactly the same experience when using (as an example) VanBasco playing midisongs as mentioned before..

BUT this is interesting !!

I paste and split some (15 p) midisongs in seperate midi channels in Cockos Reaper. Play all these songs in a row. And play
my master keyboard at the same time - lets say on midi ch 16 - and it seems - the problem has disappeared ?

Explain that - someone who dares !! ??

I gonna switch my module anyway and the idea is not to update that one - until there's is one you can trust. I will be back with more relevant
information on how the new module behaves in relation to the existing module.

/ Michael

[Dan]

I have just played 3 hours with the SD1000 (v1.1) this morning.
First, the sound is very good
Second, I don't have any tonality problems.
I was using only the USB cable.

So I need your help to reproduce the problem. I tried all your midifiles, but no problems.

How many minutes you need to play before the problem occurs?

Can you unplug any midi cables from the Krome and from SD1000
plug 2 USB cables. One for the Krome and one for SD1000.  Like I did this morning with a PA600

Maybe the problem is the MAUDIO midi interface

[Dan]

Do you have installed the latst MAUDIO drivers?

[agaton]

The serial number of my SD 1000 is :- B9AA10531P.

My updated SD1000 is much older, but the SD1000 without update has a simmilar
serial B9AA10327P. Maybe it can be OK !!! Do you can make one test for me with
your SD1000 and vArranger2 ? Import on Right 1, 2 and 3 anyone sound, go in a
Sound Edit of each of them and make Mono=ON and Portamento=ON and for Time
put value 8. Try to Play. Is any strange sound or something what not OK is, to hear ?

[Dan]

I have the number 27

[agaton]

What 27 ? Without all another letter and number !!!

[Dan]

yes the same BA..

[cirerenrut]

I did what you suggested and the voice altered and appeared a high pitched whistle this happens on R1, R2, and R3. Putting the switch back to monophonic OFF, R3 returns to it's normal voice and the same with R2, but R3 remains with the voice changed and the high pitched whistle is still apparent, only switching the SD 1000 off and back on again put R1 back to normal.   

[Dan]

I just sent this email to Ketron :

We have found new Ketron SD1000 bugs.

First one :

We set Portamento ON   and Monophonic ON  on channel 1 and channel 2

Now we play the 2 channels together like a PROGRAM (notes ON on the 2 channels and notes off on the 2 channels)

When you play a little bit between the low and high keys, you can hear a sound going up  biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip and stay there

other bugs are when you play between portamento ON/OFF and Mono  ON/OFF  while notes are slided and still playing. Some notes hangs.

[agaton]

Thats mean all SD1000 series have the same BUG with Update 1.1 !!!
Thanx Dan for the sending e-mail to Ketron.

[Dan]

Yes.
Unfortunately, bugs are something usual today
What is also normal is to correct them.
So we just have to hope that Ketron will correct them.
Usually, they correct the bugs when they are well identified

[lee]

So...If I buy a new SD1000 soon...It will be OK??
Will it come with 1.1 already on?
You can not go back to 1.0?

The SD1000 demos on Youtube are TERRIFFIC SOUND!
So I want one

Thanks,
Lee

[Dan]

SD1000 comes with version 1.0
Version 1.1 is better for vArranger.
The discovered bugs are not really annoying if you don't play for live gigs.
You can't go back to 1.0 because they did not release it.

[lee]

Dan,
Thanksa for the details....
What do you mean if I don't use it for live gigs?? Because it could screw up in a live performance for hire?
I will only play here at my house for me & family.
Do you think the bugs will get fixed?
Lee

[Dan]

When you do live gigs and you have 200 persons on the dance floor, nothing can be tolerated

If you just play at home and you need to reboot the SD1000 once a day, it's not the end of life.

For now, we have found a problem for sounds when we activate portamento and monophonic (not everyone do it)
=> Signaled to Ketron. They usually repair problems if they understand them


Some have found polyphony problems = notes cut with styles with tons of notes playing


Some have found a detuning problem, but I was not able to reproduce, and still not 100% sure what cause this problem.

[jds]

This is an update to my first post on this matter.

In the meantime I sent my SD1000 (with Firmware 1.1) back and got a new one yesterday. I asked the shop to ensure to send me one with v1.0 [btw: I don't know which version is installed. Is there a way to get it out?]
What I can say is that this module is working better than the one before >> right and left hand buttons are now playing the right tones.
[On the first module a Cis was played when pushing the C button on the right accordion side and on the left accordion side I had to use the E-row to hear a C].

Actual SerialN.: B9AA10657P

[agaton]

You have SD1000 Version 1.0. I am shure !!! Stay at this Version
so long till Ketron fix the Bugs on 1.1 Update. No trying to update
to test it, because later you can't go back on 1.0 again, and Bugs
are  "horrible": poliphony, very strange things on Percussion Style
track, no Portamento with more than one sound on right side, out
of tune... I said  "horrible". I wrote a couple of times, about this Bugs
on SD1000 to Ketron, but they are not interested to find the Bugs
and fix them. On the other side, SD1000 is one amazing Midi Modul,
with excelent sound. It is right thing for  someone who not need
physicaly controls, or for someone who can make Controllers virtual
or physical it's no different. At the end, it is amazing for vArranger2 !!!

[cirerenrut]

I agree with Agaton , I thought there was nothing wrong with my SD1000 version 1.1 because I was not doing the things that introduced the problems, when I did it was apparent that version 1.1 was displaying all the symptoms that other people were experiencing, but for home use with vArranger2 it is still an amazing sound module. 

[Dan]

ok. what we need to do now, is to create a midi file with the problem, and I will send it to ketron
Nothing is better than a midifile, to understand the problems.
I will try to find 4 hours to do it !

[mrgentleman]

Hi again - Music friends!

Just an update for you all ! As I mentioned in a previous post - so was my greatest desire to exchange my SD 1000.
And now I have the new modul in my studio - It behaves certainly different compared with the first one and I'm
gonna stick to this firmware (I believe and hope it,s 1.0) I did a varying test with all kind of different midi's and
styles, and configurations, and it seems that my previously problems had disappeared - For NOW -  I'm somewhat
2 inches more happy !   

There was a time I wanted to throw the shit overboard . so to speak (Sorry about that) But now I really want to explore more
- after all - I really like the sound that's coming from this little, inconspicuous, modest, nearly invisible, cuty box - cheers!

Regards Michael

[lee]

Dan,
Yes...please send them a MIDI to show all these bugs. They have to fix it under warranty. I have heard that both Korg and Ketron are very slow to fix stuff...but once they have the detail to make it fail...then many people need to beat them up about fixing it...so they know many customers are not happy. I want to get one of these but will wait until it is fixed.
Lee

[Dan]

I am a little tired to work for them for free, and hope they will listen to me
But I will do it...

[Dan]

Playing many hours tonight with SD1000 1.1.  Wow so amazing sounds !! I was trying Ketron SD1 styles. They sound very good.
Polyphony problems are only with Yamaha styles. maybe because of the 2 drum tracks? or styles are much demanding.

[agaton]

Maybe also anyone SysEx string from Yamahas style on 2nd Rhythum track make
all this problems with Polyphony ? But another Bug, with 2 or more Portamento
sounds in the same time, on the right side !!! That is very bad !!! In Version 1.0 is
all OK with Portamento with more sounds on the right side.

[lee]

IMPORTANT!
OK, today I talked to AJ at Ketron USA (267-323-5005) E-mail: ketron_tech@yahoo.com
AJ said to copy him on everything you send to Ketron, Italy so he can put in a REQUEST to fix it for all customers.
AJ is a important guy in the Ketron stuff.

here is his web site:
http://www.ajamsonic.com/index.html

He will beat them up to get them to fix SD-1000 bugs.

Dan...maybe some others here that have SD-1000 can help to define bugs and create a failure to send to Ketron ...so you don't have to everything yourself?? Come on guys help Dan out...I'm sure he would rather spend time programming vA2.

Ketron will need very SPECIFIC details so they can make it fail in their lab.

Thanks,
Lee

[Tuggen]

So it's not possible to see what FW you have in SD1000?

[agaton]

No, it is not possible !!!

[lee]

If that is true then Ketron should have their butt kicked!
It is very poor engineering to have a product you can not even find out the FM version.
They need to drink less wine & have less holidays & get it together over there.
Same for Korg...which I have had considerable experience with their POOR support and slowness to acknowledge & fix anything... over time
Lee

[agaton]

It is true and I am totaly agree with you, but it is also true that SD1000 has
amazing sound which can be compared with the best hardware arrangeurs on
the market to time. Not only compared, it is mostly better. So good sound and
so bad support, this is absolutly one very, very big  "no go".

[Dan]

Do anyone still have the SD1000 out of tune problem?

If yes, can you try to not send midi sync to SD1000 and tell me?