Song mode does not save all it should ...

[BjayG]

Dear All,

I have been using vArranger since August 2013 and I am disappointed to say that I am beginning to become increasingly frustrated with it.  It has undoubted strengths - but song/reload can sometimes be a downright pain.

I raised this in a thread on the forum last week related to muting song chords - but decided that the issue actually deserved its own thread.   What I said then was that: "The biggest fault with vArranger for me is that it doesn't have what I call performance, registration or total user presets modes.".  Certainly most top of the range arrangers do have this facility and vA has aspirations to join this illustrious group. 

In the thread I indicated the way (as its apparently not widely known) that something akin to performance mode could be simulated by stringing together several small songs (i.e. music sections) in real time.   And by using assignable midi controllers - it is possible to flexibly call up these music sections with a button push from your keyboard.   This part works extremely well and is very easy to use:  see   http://www.varranger.com/vforum/index.php/topic,1964.0.html?PHPSESSID=01fc60bb49b5ab79856cf362b25d09df  for more details.

That's the good bit.  But what is a severe problem to me is that SONG SAVE does not save a whole load of parameters/items that I feel it should and it consequently removes a lot of potential flexibility and usability.  For example:  using very short song segments still means you need to set up a MySounds sound bar (or even a multi-voice) even if it contains only one sound - rather than more simply leaving the sounds as they were in the Left (1-3) and Right (1-4) sound windows. I have been raising this matter privately with Dan for well over a year - but he doesn't seem to accept there is an issue and this is adding greatly to my frustration. 

For me - a fundamental problem is that the settings of the Left (1-3) and Right (1-4) sounds and lots of other things are not stored - and that when you load a song (any song) then those sections are set to something completely different to what they were when the song was saved!  I believe it should be possible to save the settings of nearly everything on the screen (and some hidden) when you save a song - and have them reloaded later EXACTLY as they were saved - and not have vArranger  decide to arbitrarily change it to what it chooses.   Below is a list of things not saved in a song, which I believe should be:-

- Left (1-3) and Right (1-4) and 2nd voice:-
  Sound selection
  Volume sliders
- For all sound sections including accompaniments:-
  On/off buttons
  Solo Buttons
  Chorus/ reverb controllers
  Left/right pan
  Aftertouch settings (in voice edit - but why?).
  Voice edit parameters (but maybe should the reason for a User Sound)
- Under FX2 - Delay setting
- Under FX2 - Disto setting
- HOLD button
- LEFT button
- Accompaniment section BASS - Octave Bass
- Fill In: Auto button
- What others?

The point that I keep making to Dan is that as far as I can tell there should be no negative impact in saving all the above stuff and restoring them on loading - and people can carry on using vA exactly as now if they wish.   By all means make it user selectable - that would desirable and even better.   But it makes no sense to me that people would actually not want vA to load a song exactly as they stored it, rather than have it arbitrarily change it - which it currently does!

The major advantage is that it means you would be able to load a song and then start to play as soon as you reload it -  and not have to fiddle around setting things like split point and the left hold parameters etc.  But the real gain, for me,  would be that it would be possible to reload the last settings of the sound (e.g. sound, sliders, mute buttons) without having to go through the flog of needing to pre-save sounds unnecessarily in advance (either as user sound or via the MySounds bar). 

So - I really do not understand why this simple problem cannot be fixed - particularly when it increases the usability and flexibility of vA.   

Does anyone else find it a problem?

Regards
Barry

[Lylo]

I don't read english well and I don't understand what you want really but this parameters are saving in vArranger :

Left (1-3) and Right (1-4) and 2nd voice:-
  Sound selection
  Volume sliders
- For all sound sections including accompaniments:-
   Chorus/ reverb controllers
  Left/right pan
  Aftertouch settings (in voice edit - but why?).
  Voice edit parameters (but maybe should the reason for a User Sound)
- Under FX2 - Delay setting
- Under FX2 - Disto setting
- HOLD button
- LEFT button
- Accompaniment section BASS - Octave Bass
- Fill In: Auto button

It missing :

  On/off buttons
  Solo Buttons

I think that's all and I hope it's possible in the futur.

[haweneu]

Hi,
in the past, i also had the wish, that VA2 should have a store function for all values that are used in a song!
This is like a performance mode called by Korg ( i own an over 10 years old PA 80 keyboard => this has the performance mode!).

Also there is a problem with the Ketron SD 1000 and effects!
======================================
If i have a song with distortion or delayeffect ( from SD 1000) for example, the effectsetting is also not stored with the save song! If i then  load a new song, there works the effect from previous loaded song = this is very strange, if a flute for example is played over a distortion effect! Also the reverb is allways on maximum after loading a new song!
Result => if i load a new song, i allways must adjust the effects => is a brake in play the new song fast after loading!


Conclusion:
=========
If VA2 should be an alternative for a arranger keyboard, then perfomance mode is a must!!!!
And also if VA2 has a menue for changing effects in an external soundengine ( like SD 1000), VA 2 should also have a save function with it!

So why can VA2 not simple save all settings of a song in a file?

[ovation99]

A big thumbs up for these changes to be implemented. Many requests have been made in the past for these performance functions.
Personally, I feel that these basic performance parameters should be available before we start thinking about VST's etc.

[one]

Yes it would be great if we can do that. when i load my song i would like everything I saved for that song to come up specially  when I am playing live.

[BjayG]

Hi

Although I mentioned it in the text - I forgot to add it to my list - and it was what started me off in the first place  (duh!!):-

So add - Split Point also not saved.

Barry

[lee]

I have only had vA2 a short while.
I am sad it does not already have this features....There a many things that are a minimum to have and this is one of them.
A fear that there is many more missing that I will find out as I use it more...we need to have all the basics covered to emulate a HW arranger before we get fancy with things.

Dan is a willing and very able person...we need to be sure the basics are all there that a HW keyboard has and help him see the needs.
If too many needed things are not here...folks will abandon vA2 and get a HW arranger. We don't want that.
Lee

[Lylo]

Perhaps you are right but I'm sorry, some features miss in hardware arrangers and with the hardware you never hope have the functions because it's closed and it's a object.
The forum is here for ask the features, if you say one day "I want this function" and after you never explain why it's important for you, Dan can go to work on other features, it's not the good way and fatally you crying one year later.

[haweneu]

Hi,

what features are missing in hardware arrangers?

I know only missing of loading styles of other manufacturers or use of VST(I)!

And Hardware arrangers have many more functions like harmonizer or Ensemble functions!


Many user crying in this forum in the past because  they miss performance mode in VA2!

Also in the german "technic forum" or "keyboard forum" this is discussed!


On stage you must after playing a song very fast load the next song.  In the moment after loading a song then you must allways adjust some things like effects (with SD 1000) or VST Settings etc => this costs time!

If you say, you have right and left hand sounds stored with a song => this is good but not the final solution!

The same right - or left hand sound can have in different songs different volumes or other settings (for example  "from to Key" etc)!

So you need  near infinity right and left hand sound to create => hard work!


If i use a song, i use it with the style, right- and left hand sounds and all other settings made in VA2 like effects, track mute etc. as other members described!


And it is allways simpler, to load a style, adjust some settings in VA2 and then save this as perfomance in one file like in all Keyboards today!



Performance mode is need for every keyboardplayer! And this is missing in VA2!


And like other users say, it is more important to implement the basic functions of an arranger keyboard (the name "Varranger" relates direkt to replacement of an arranger keyboard!) before we talk about great features like 64 bit VST or others!
Many VSTI are today in 32 Bit Format! I teste some free VSTI and found this!


I know Dan does a hard  and very good work!

[Lylo]

Sorry but when I make a song with the song chord for example, I save the parameters with the song save and it's ok for me, I am ok with you to say some functions are missing (as the mute) but with can make live performance now, from 4 years ago I play every week with vArranger and it's ok.
I play music, not the arranger. 


(in hardware when you use a function on a arranger you don't are sure to find this function in the new arranger two years after).

[BjayG]

> The forum is here for ask the features, if you say one day "I want this function" and after you never explain why it's important for you,
>  Dan can go to work on other features, it's not the good way and fatally you crying one year later.

I did say this on the forum in February 2014 - and Dan's response (in the forum) was:-

About other need :
You Want total snapshots of all the settings in vArranger.  This is the goal of SAVE SONG feature.
You have noticed me that you need the SPLIT point and LINK button to be saved too. I will add it.

And the answer is ?

Maybe I am old fashioned - but my view is that it is not correct to always raise matters in a public forum.    If I have a complaint with a TV - then I contact the supplier and give them a chance to fix it - not tell the world.     I have explained in great detail to Dan privately (via email) on several occasions of my requirements and reasons.

Barry

[ovation99]

I am pleased that Lylo has been satisfied with the functionality of VA2 for your performances.
But I would suggest that a good proportion of owners require more STANDARD functionality for performances.
You wouldn't accept a hardware arranger if the salesman said "you cannot solo any tracks, but it does have DSP's" so why should we accept a product that does not have basic arranger functionality?

In my view (and others) is that we should get the basics right before wandering off at tangents of VST's, 64 bit, additional equipment to cover the shortcomings of VA2.

However, we discuss the pro's and con's of VA2 until the cows come home and with that in mind, I wonder if Dan is monitoring this thread and whether he intends to respond !!!

[Lylo]

Don't forget vArranger is based on the Ketron arrangers, I think that you have an idea about the limits of this machines, vArranger has always some limits from the genese.

Talk of the new features you want in vArranger in the forum is a good way for Dan to knows how many persons are interested by the feature.

And I'm sorry but the futur for vArranger is the vsti, we are in XXIeme century. 

[Dan]

SAVE SONG + SAVE SOUND actually save 95% of the vArranger full state

I will now work first on track ON / OFF for SAVE SOUND

This is a nice feature, because not everyone knows about the OFF button (TOP LEFT) that can be saved. And will help for the second step of reading OTS from Yamaha styles

[haweneu]

Hi,
i also think that VST + VSTI is the future!

But for me, the perfomance mode is more important, because i have a very good soundengine with the SD 1000!

I am a homeplayer and play only with styles! And therefore i need with loading of a style also the effect setup for this style! This doesnt work in the moment in VA2

And if you say, VA2 is based on ketron, i wonder that VA2 not supports all features of SD1000!

Please Dan give me an answer, when you will ( ore not) implement the performance function and effect save for SD1000!

Dont misunderstand me => VA2 ist a wonderful software with big functions and very small limitations!

And i talk here in this forum, because i think other members have same wishes!

[Dan]

SD1000 is another story. Some of the SD1000 sounds includes some FX, and this is now hard to deal with FX in parallel.
I really don't want to send sysex messages every time you change a sound, to set the DSP, as this will slow down the midi arranger stream
I admit that I need to take 2 or 3 hours to think more about what is the best that can be done

[haweneu]

Hi Dan,
thank you for the fast answer!

But you must not send allways all sysex for dsp control if you change a sound!
Only after start of VA2 you send the full sysex setup to the SD1000 for the actual sound and store the sent data then in memory of pc. There is no timing problem!

If you then must change the sound during play, you can only send changes ( old dsp value is stored in PC memory) to the dsp as sysex ( for example distortion was on and should be off).
The algorithm for this is more compex as sendung all sysex with every sound change! But MIDI data traffic is less!

[Dan]

You create a very complex algorithm, to avoid sending too much data, and then you notice that when you select some sounds, the SD1000 change the DSP internally....... All is dead

[haweneu]

Hi Dan,

right!

I forgot this internal dsp change with some special sounds ( i think this are the last 8 sounds in the soundlist of the manual, that use this dsp effects).

Perhaps we can replace this sounds with the original sounds without dsp and add then the dsp effect with my complex algorithm?

Do you think, all Sysex for the complete DSP change need to many time?

I will look in the manual for the lengts of all Sysex.

[ovation99]

Dan,
Are you referring to the ON/OFF button on each channel slider, next to the SOLO button?

If so, I have controlled this by my Nanokontrol, but a more useful action (for me anyway) would be to be able to control the SOLO buttons individually from my Nanokontrol.

Is it possible to list on this forum the proposed changes/improvements that you intend to implement? This would save us repeating the same requests time after time.

Al

[BjayG]

Dear All,

I'm relieved that people are agreeing there is a problem and that Dan is now thinking about it.    I have every confidence in Dan's abilities and still believe that, without any doubt, vA is a great arranger and I believe that moving to use VST and other future technologies is really important.   However, the basics need to work too as that will definitely make it much stronger.

I honestly do not think that the problems I identified are too difficult to fix (although I'm sure we can make it really difficult without trying too hard if we keep adding to the complexity   ;-)   ).  And it is still my view that if we can save more items in song save (as I identified) then we really will have the fundamentals of a quite practical and usable performance mode.   At least get these basic issues fixed and then see what people think.   For info:   I have written a brief explanation of this at the bottom.

So I would like to suggest a way forward as I think I would like to see a definite plan - and not have one item fixed here and another later on.    I suggested a comprehensive list earlier and I would like to suggest it should form the basis of any changes.  Perhaps this list could then be divided into 2:  with one list being a definite 'WILL IMPLEMENT' and another will be 'WILL INVESTIGATE'.  So anything related to the fundamental use of vA (such as say split point) should be in the first list and anything related to specific hardware (like DSP) should perhaps be in the second list.     So here is the list again - but this time in the two categories.

WILL IMPLEMENT
- Split point 
- Left (1-3) and Right (1-4) and 2nd voice:-      [note: this applies when MySounds are unset - as any MySounds sounds will obviously override the contents]
  Sound selection
  Volume sliders
- For all sound sections including accompaniments
  On/off buttons
  Solo Buttons
  Chorus/ reverb controllers
  Left/right pan
  Aftertouch on/off settings (in voice edit - but why? - these are surely not part of voice changes - more real time? ).
  Voice edit parameters (but maybe should be the reason for a User Sound)
- HOLD button
- LEFT button
- Accompaniment section BASS - Octave Bass
- Fill In: Auto button

WILL INVESTIGATE
- Under FX2 - Delay setting
- Under FX2 - Disto setting

I certainly understand, and share, Dan's concern that if we are not careful then its possible to mess up vA's response time - thus Dan's comment about sending lots of SysExe.   But if all we are doing is setting the internals of vA itself - then I would not have thought it would make too much difference.  Also I would presume that maybe DSP setting changes only need re-sending if they have altered in order to reduce any overhead  (but this might happen anyway!).

Perhaps Dan would like to comment on whether this is a practical way forward.

Thanks
Barry

And for those wondering what I am talking about using songs as performance mode - then here is a brief overview :-

? PERFORMANCE MODE:-

It is not apparently widely known that you can store a song folder within a song folder (i.e the MySongs folder) and that when you store multiple songs within this lower folder they appear as separate buttons on the left hand selection list (i.e. where the styles normally display).   By assigning the midi functions to the song controllers identified as Song 1, Song2, etc or by selecting the screen menu manually - you can then select each of these individual sub-songs in real time.    The clever part is that vA waits until the end of the bar before the song changes over to the next.  So if 'Sub-song 1' is the Intro leading into Part A of Swing 1 using a Clarinet; then 'Sub-song 2' can be Part B of Swing 1 using a Trombone etc. You could even have 'Sub-Song 3'  as a completely different style  (maybe even a 2/4 section!!) etc. .    Everything else about using vA works as normal.   (at least that is how it seems to work in my experiments).

[jbg31792]

I agree Al,

I also would love to have control of turning the SOLO function on/off in each track.

Within each mixer track to have not only separate midi controllers dedicated to turning each track on/off; but, also have controllers for each track that would turn the SOLO function on/off as well.

Thanks,

john

[pax_eterna]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the single thing that would complete it is if when you saved a "song" it also saved the VSTi patches assigned to the "Arranger Parts" not just the right hand/left hand sounds.
When I open a song that I use my VSTi for I have to go back and re-assign the sounds within the VSTi.

[BjayG]

Hi,

Well Good luck with that - I note that after 7 months I never did get a proper response from Dan (publicly or via email) - so I have to assume that performance mode or improved song save won't happen.

Anyway - the reason I responded was to say that I gave some instructions on how to simulate a sort of performance mode using song mode in this thread.   Unfortunately that got broken several months ago and no longer works as there is an audible delay as vA changes song - so makes it unusable  (and no - I never received acknowledgement when I reported the problem).

Barry

[Lylo]

Hello, the save parameter of vsti by song is always in work but it's a challenge for Dan, he must find the best way for that and doesn't making any mistake for the future.
The unique way for us is to be patient, not for some weeks as in the past but for months.

[pax_eterna]

Well Lylo, it has been 8 months now since this was raised

[Lylo]

Yes I know and me too I'm impatient but you know vArranger is very complex now and Dan is not a magician, he's a software genius but also a human with a job and a family. Now vArranger can progress slower because is more complex than three or two years ago and Dan is always alone.

[pax_eterna]

Yes Lylo - I know this    just teasing 

[Dan]

Yes, I am adding linking VST saving to the song, but are you already aware that you can SAVE and reload a VST within vArranger?

Go on the VST Options ( the + close to the VST name) and you will see the saving options

[pax_eterna]

Thanks Dan I will check it   might be a workable short term solution

[BjayG]

Lylo wrote:  > but also with a job and a family

This came as a total surprise - but it does explain my concerns.     

I have always assumed that vA was written by a commercial company (albeit a very small one man one) with full time support and development.  Maybe I was being very naive - but given its high price it never once occurred to me that vA was basically a hobby project that was being developed in someones spare time and effectively had hardly any support/development capacity.

I'm truly disappointed because I'm sorry to say that I cannot see that there is the likelihood of any major development in anything like the near future.

I hope maybe I've misunderstood - so please correct me.

Barry

[Dan]

Barry be reassured about the future of vArranger.

I am continuously working on vArranger, since 10 years, probably more than what you ever worked on a project in your whole life

[pax_eterna]

Lylo wrote:  > but also with a job and a family

This came as a total surprise - but it does explain my concerns.     

I have always assumed that vA was written by a commercial company (albeit a very small one man one) with full time support and development.  Maybe I was being very naive - but given its high price it never once occurred to me that vA was basically a hobby project that was being developed in someones spare time and effectively had hardly any support/development capacity.

I'm truly disappointed because I'm sorry to say that I cannot see that there is the likelihood of any major development in anything like the near future.

I hope maybe I've misunderstood - so please correct me.

Barry

Yeah I reckon you have misunderstood   This is NOT amateur hacker or hobby software. Perhaps way back when, Dan did develop it originally as a hobby project for himself - I cannot say as I was not around then. But what I can say now is it is fully professional with professional support. More so than many programs and companies.

You are looking at it in a negative way when you should look at it positively. Where else would you get to talk one on one with the developer?  Many, MANY of the capabilities in vA now came from suggestions and two way dialogue between licence holders and Dan. Dan comes up with most of it thought. All we offer is some tinkering around the edges. The price is fully commensurate with the amount of work that goes into providing upgrades, tech support and the myriad other minor tasks (most of which are behind the scenes) that need to be undertaken on a day to day basis. Not to forget once bought, you pay for NOTHING else!!! Whereas these days most software companies are moving to subscription services and the end-user just pays and pays!

You have a question or need some help? - well if the forum does not have the answer within a few hours, then Dan will have one for you within the day! He also has, on many occasions, actually logged on to a users PC live, to help sort issues (with the owners consent of course - it cannot happen without it).

I cannot tell you what to think, obviously, but I can give a personal guarantee that you will never ever be let down, and you are getting software of the highest quality and operational status. Others I am sure will also make comments on this and you know what, I bet you NONE will make any disparaging remarks either!

Of all the issues I have seen, I would hazard a guess that approx 99% of them were user error, or incorrect PC setups. This software is mature, works extremely well and all that happens to it is new features are added to make a muso's job all about performing, and forgetting about the "back-room" stuff

C'mon, drop the negativity and jump in!

[Lylo]

I'm ok with pax_eterna (it's not a joke lol !   ) you must know also that Dan is a musician and play many w.e. in year, you can be afraid to know that but for me it's a warranty for vArranger, it's not a software for engineer but for serving the musician because the developper work with it and he want the best software of the world and not only the money for eat.

[ovation99]

Yuk !! I think I'm gonna be sick 

[pax_eterna]

hahaha!

[agaton]

Barry, Barry... it is a big shame to read what you wrote. I am developer
who use vArranger software, as major aplication in all of my instruments.
I am co-worker in Yamahas and Rolands develompent stuff over 20 years.
I can all of actual hardware arrangers from all of big four producer. I can
say to you, you are 404 with your nebulous theory. Simply, you haven't
got a clue about all what you wrote !!! vArranger2 is a few times better,
as a top hardware arrangers. It is ergonomical, functional, stable like a 
stone, but regardless open for amazing new functions. Stop to write about
something what you have no frigging idea !!! 

[cirerenrut]

1) I can count seven people ( excluding Lylo and Agaton ) who seem to feel that vArranger is not " all things to all men ". That is a rather a low percentage of vArranger owners who perhaps, like me are content in the way that vArranger is being developed.
2) For those owners who now think that vArranger is a let down because it does not have the features they thought or expected it should have, perhaps they should have researched it before paying the modest asking price.
Eric

[agaton]

[Pekilik]

I must to tell my opinion, vA2 works in 98% very well with all functions which has, and possibilities are bigger than hardware arrangers, but in this 2% I must sugest
couple things which I wrote Dan in past but this stuff not fixed yet, Dan should fix retriggering note length in Fill-ins in all tracks (except drum and perc tracks),
because sometimes we have uncomfortable cutting when we press Fill in, Dan knows for this problem and he have I think too hardware arrangers and he can see how this
works on hardware arrangers,
and second smaller problem (they maybe not problem) it will be good that in SONG we can save SYNC START and STOP, and HOLD and LEFT state,

all other stuff works 100% steadily....

[Lylo]

I'm ok with you, save by song "sync", "hold" and... "split" are missed and it's strange because is  certainly not hard to install.

[Dan]

Thank you all.
By the way, my plans never changed to create the most advanced arranger in the world
You are right to tell me what is missing to you, and how I can improve the vArranger, and this directly goes to my huge list of ideas.

You can still have hopes about the future

[Pekilik]

Retriggering note length in Fill in is Basic function in all hardware arrangers, it is not  personal idea any of us ...

[agaton]

1+

[pax_eterna]

Retriggering note length in Fill in is Basic function in all hardware arrangers, it is not  personal idea any of us ...

ermmm, I don't think so. Note re-triggering is available on a few arranger OS's, but NOT note length retriggering, afaik.

[agaton]

No, no, you are in right, not Note Lenght retrigering !!!
Only Note On but till bar end.

[Pekilik]

Perhaps I did not explain well, but Zlatko and Dan will understood me, we are talking about that in past,
for example if you have one note (strings note) recorded in one bar in Fill in, recorded across all beats to the end of bar,
and when press Fill in on half bar styler not reproduces note because start note (note on) is before pressing Fill in...